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  1. #1
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    Default Instructor Insurance

    A couple of issues ago, there was a small article about the advisedness of all Instructors and folk who offer rider training to have pukka insurance - in case they are negligent!!! Negligent how? By failing to vet out those clients stupid enough to injure themselves and blame other folk for something blatantly their own damned fault?

    Now, I fully realise that I am quickly blending in with the hills so my take on such matters is far from modern - but REALLY!
    Am I the only one that is hartily sickened by this intrusion of the litigant obsessed American way of life into what is one if not THE most British of pastimes - Riding?

    It was good to see a few years ago that the Law Lords - after about twenty years of normal education, the Bar exam, working as Barristers, being called as a Judge that they came to the conclusion (wait for it...... ) that learning to ride was dangerous! But they passed the buck on liability ( obviously, because all their mates are still looking for work ambulance chasing.)

    What say you?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    There are plenty of ways in which an instructor could be negligent and cause accidents over and above the normal risks of horse riding. As a result, insurance is necessary.

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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Theocat View Post
    There are plenty of ways in which an instructor could be negligent and cause accidents over and above the normal risks of horse riding. As a result, insurance is necessary.
    This above
    Growing old disgracefully.......VERY disgracefully

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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Theocat View Post
    There are plenty of ways in which an instructor could be negligent and cause accidents over and above the normal risks of horse riding. As a result, insurance is necessary.
    Well - come on then - name them!

    I reckon that most people would think jumping out of a perfectly working aircraft was pretty dangerous - it's killed far more people than riding accidents. Granted all the parachute instructors I know are insured but I've never heard one blamed for an accident - prosecuted for murder, yes, accidents, no.

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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    Jumping lesson - instructor throws the cups down carelessly - horse refuses and lands on the cups causing injury.

    No question the instructor has made a mistake. No way the rider could have reasonably known in advance.

    Now that i've got you started, I'm sure you have the intelligence and imagination to consider the question further and come up with a few more yourself.

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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Theocat View Post
    ..... I'm sure you have the intelligence and imagination to consider the question.......
    Oh deary me, yes (well, I'm not too sure about the intelligence but imagination may be).

    Jumping lesson - instructor throws the cups down carelessly - horse refuses and lands on the cups causing injury.
    Many thanks for posting such a glaringly obvious "watch what you're doing" example of modern life. Soooooooo depressing!

    What about the stupid student who continues to use an area unfit for the purpose? All it would have taken is a couple of little words -"I say, would you mind awfully - picking those ********g things up and putting them somewhere safe?" Incident avoided. You haven't mentioned to whom the jumps or the cups belong to either - if they are the student's or a third party and there's no bag to put them in etc., etc.,

    No question the instructor has made a mistake.
    Yes - picking that fri***g student!

    No way the rider could have reasonably known in advance.
    Oh yes she/he could ( we're still in panto season) - you put up any point you like and I'll knock it down. I've run large building sites - they used to kill and maim a lot of people which had to stop but the Elf&Safety went from the sublime to the utterly ridiculous! I can't abide it.

    Worse still, I find it even more depressing that folk like you want to join in the blame game -don't you ever accept responsibility for you own actions?
    Last edited by OldFogie; 23-01-18 at 11:08 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    You make the assumption that the instructor is teaching someone who has a certain level of knowledge. In particular when teaching beginners and novices, they do not understand the risks associated with horses.

    Example; rider tries to mount horse without checking the girth as they do not know they need to do this. Saddle slips and rider falls backwards banging their head on the mounting block and needing significant lifelong care due to a brain injury. Instructor, who was probably in the process of checking the tack and missed the confident novice throwing themselves up the mounting block, is found guilty by a persistent lawyer and is liable for the care costs for this person.

    Unconscious incompetence (not knowing what you can't do) is the biggest problem for many coaches.

    If I sent a novice rider out into an open field to ride when they were incapable of controlling the horse in that situation - would they know that they do not have enough ability to control the horse in that situation? If they simply had a slight concern, but I - as a qualified person they have paid to teach them - have told them to do it, would they question me? Some would, some wouldn't. If they have an accident as a result of this, then whose fault is it? Mine. If I send a more experienced rider out there who has shown me that they have the requisite skills to control the horse, and they have an unexpected accident, then is it still my fault? No. If I have never met them but they tell me that they regularly ride in this field without issue and this is where they choose to ride but they have an accident, is it my fault? No.

    If a very young child burns themselves on a hot iron, is it their fault or the parents? If the child has not yet been told (and understands) the risk of the hot iron then someone else has to ensure their safety around it until the child understands enough to make their own decision on the risks.

    Yes, the compensation culture is poor. However it is not enough to say that insurance is unnecessary due to common sense.

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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by ruth83 View Post
    You make the assumption that the instructor is teaching someone who has a certain level of knowledge.
    No Ruth I don't and I don't have to. Kindly notice that I was quoting from a published article that itself quoted the Law Lords ruling that Riding was inherently dangerous - that to me is fine and dandy, good enough - as it should be for anyone. If your notional "beginners" are so niaive as to be devoid of reason they can't understand plain English they should be politely told to ***off.

    I fully realise that stupidity exists in the world - I witness it everyday but I do not see why people who do know what they are doing - say, highly educated judges, barristers and for that matter insurance folk put up with the intelectually challenged call all the shots - they should be plainly told - this is dangerous, fun but dangerous, if you wanna do it great but if you wanna complain - s*d off!

    In particular when teaching beginners and novices, they do not understand the risks associated with horses.
    Though I've been critical elsewhere of one particularly highly regarded centre of equitational excellence - I will say that any of their clients never went anywhere near a horse until they did understand the risks! When I had flying lessons - I had to read a damn great book before I ever went near an aircraft and once inside one I would be regularly shouted at (perhaps as an instructor, you might like to remember this one because it is THE favourite for all Flying Instructors) "WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO? KILL US ALL!!!

    If a very young child burns themselves on a hot iron, is it their fault or the parents?
    I'm glad you brought that one up. When my elder daughter was toddling about, we had an AGA type cooker - her indoors was never endingly fretting over the hot bits - I said not to worry because she'd only touch it once - which was the way I was brought up.

    However it is not enough to say that insurance is unnecessary due to common sense.
    Ah, but what I'm saying is - the only reason the insurance is needed is because of the LACK of commonsense - those of us with it should tell anyone trying to claim compensation to bog off.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    A client of mine is a district nurse. She recently said that, having had to assist someone who was significantly and life long injured by a preventable accident, she would thoroughly challenge ANYONE who declared they would never claim against someone who led them into having that accident.

    For me, that is enough to feel I would want to be fully insured, and to ensure that anyone I train with is the same.

    The centre you mention is, for me, proving my point rather than disproving it. They must educate the people first to understand the risk!

    I suspect there is no example in this world that would lead you to even consider that your opinion may be flawed. In some ways that is to be applauded, and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. At least your daughter would only have been lightly burned by touching the AGA, not killed by being kicked in the head.

    Perhaps next time you make a quote, you could kindly consider putting it into quote marks so that it is identifiable as such?

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    Default Re: Instructor Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by ruth83 View Post
    A client of mine is a district nurse. She recently said that, having had to assist someone who was significantly and life long injured by a preventable accident, she would thoroughly challenge ANYONE who declared they would never claim against someone who led them into having that accident.
    Oh I agree - this is one of the points I hopefully brought out - folk just look for the best person to sue and deny any fault of their own. All "accidents" are preventable BTW - that's the reason why the police etc., call them "incidents" now though for the complete oposite reason - in modern parlance "accident" implies that god had a good hand in the business but he can't be sued so they've changed the word to make litigation easier!

    For me, that is enough to feel I would want to be fully insured,
    Well point taken, we none of us can do without it and the very fact that we have it - ensures we will be sued or are at least likely fodder. My proffessional indemnity insurance which is on top of the contractor's all risks arranged on the site itself - will continue on liabilty two decades after I'm dead!!!

    I suspect there is no example in this world that would lead you to even consider that your opinion may be flawed.
    Quite the contrary - I'm always open to debate. The only positive thing about insurance is that it does provide for an injured person however imperfectly ( usually )- it's just that I deeply object to it being dependant on someone's negligence. Don't forget that in the last few years the H&H pages have brought us several harrowing tales of yard owners finding themselves not covered or insufficiently covered.

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