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Thread: Thistle-Who?!

  1. #21
    Veteran KautoStar1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Quote Originally Posted by EKW View Post
    'He goes to Newbury and he's ready to win'

    Uh huh! So what happened then? He got beaten by the majority of the field! Love the name of the horse that won - Beer Goggles - he's come a long long way since winning a crappy wee hurdle wound Hexham that's for sure!
    Bet you'd kill for a horse of his quality in your yard though !

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Quote Originally Posted by KautoStar1 View Post
    Bet you'd kill for a horse of his quality in your yard though !
    And who says we don't? We have plenty of nice youngstars coming through - oh and a wee horse who won some dodgy wee race called the Grand National?!?

    My original comment wasn't a dig at the horse but a dig at the trainer for being so bullish before hand. Nothing in life is a certainty no matter how good your horse is.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Well TC is out for the season again. Hairline fracture apparently.

    I think it bears out the theory that a good horse can have a great season and be virtually unbeatable in that time, but its only the very exceptional ones like Kauto, Big Bucks, Denman, Dessie, Best Mate, Hurricane Fly and Sprinter, that can maintain that winning formula season after season and even after the adversity of injury. I mean really exceptional horses. The rest are just good. And we need to accept that and be thankful that we get to see them when we do and not moan when we don't. People moaned about Hen Knight only getting Best Mate out 3 or 4 times a year, but he is still the only horse in recent times to have won back to back Gold Cups. He was exceptional but also brilliantly managed, as was KS.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Good post KS, it’s so sad when a horse is so good, you just want them to go on and on because that is where NH racing scores. We like ones to love and follow season after season. Sadly Coneygree is another fragile one who couldn’t realise his potential, or rather he got there but not for long.

  5. #25

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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Quote Originally Posted by KautoStar1 View Post
    Well TC is out for the season again. …….. .

    I think it bears out the theory that a good horse can have a great season and be virtually unbeatable in that time, but its only the very exceptional ones like Kauto, Big Bucks, Denman, Dessie, Best Mate, Hurricane Fly and Sprinter, that can maintain that winning formula season after season and even after the adversity of injury. I mean really exceptional horses. ....

    ….People moaned about Hen Knight only getting Best Mate out 3 or 4 times a year, but he is still the only horse in recent times to have won back to back Gold Cups. He was exceptional but also brilliantly managed, as was KS.
    I'd suggest that the exceptional horse needs to be teamed and under the control of the exceptional management crew and as will be obvious, it would be rare for the owners to fully understand ……..

    An interesting point/question; if we consider the Nicholsons and the Hendersons, the Gosdens and Cumanis, and if we consider just how many horses they have in training and for the years that they've plied their trade, I wonder how many horses an owner needs to have before he knows more than the trainer — I wonder how often the owners decide upon the race, be the horse in a fit state to run, or not. In short, how many horses does an owner need to have before he knows more than his trainer?

    Alec.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Part of me thinks Thistlecracks new injury is partly down to being brought back into work too early and pushed too hard from his last one. I know it is a completely different type of injury and on a different leg but to get a horse back from a leg in 10 months is pushing it. Most people go by the adage of - 3 months box rest, 3 months walking, 3 months turnout and 3 months training to race a year on from the initial injury. No it wasn't a big injury but there was still a hole in the tendon. We've put horses away for a year for much less.

    As to Alan's question of how many horses do owners have to have before they know more than the trainer - none. Unless you follow them around 24/7, see all their thoughts and think the way they do you will never know what your horse is truly 100% upto. Yes many owners choose their races but that's when they know their horse - stayer, chaser, hurdler or sprinter but they will always ask the trainer if the horse will be ready to run for then or ask them to be within their best capabilities. If the owner thinks they can do a better job then they should train the horse themselves.
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  7. #27
    Veteran KautoStar1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Swan View Post
    I'd suggest that the exceptional horse needs to be teamed and under the control of the exceptional management crew and as will be obvious, it would be rare for the owners to fully understand ……..

    An interesting point/question; if we consider the Nicholsons and the Hendersons, the Gosdens and Cumanis, and if we consider just how many horses they have in training and for the years that they've plied their trade, I wonder how many horses an owner needs to have before he knows more than the trainer — I wonder how often the owners decide upon the race, be the horse in a fit state to run, or not. In short, how many horses does an owner need to have before he knows more than his trainer?

    Alec.

    I don't think this is about owners though, although they play a part. this is more about those good horses like Thirstlecrack and Coneygree who have had their 'brilliant' season but they will never make it into the history books as exceptional, eg Kauto, Best Mate, because they simply aren't exceptional. They are just good. As I suspect Sizing John is just good. A brilliant season can take a lot out of a horse. Much more than is obvious on the outside. Taking nothing away from these good horses. They've been amazing on certain days. but their longevity is short lived. Nothing wrong with being good though. Anyone lucky enough to own these good horses should be very happy with their lot.

    As for owners knowing more than their trainers - depends on the owner doesn't it. A corporate man with a load of cash probably knows a lot less than the man who breeds his own stock and has spent all his life around horses. Doesn't mean the corporate man can't learn as he goes along but wont really affect whether his horses are exceptional or just good. That's down to the horse itself. They either are or they aren't. its then the trainers job to try and ensure his horse reaches its full potential. Would Coneygree have won the gold cup under another trainer ? hard to know isn't it because a yard with a lot of horses would have probably carried on down the novice route. The Bradstocks decided to risk it because it was probably their one and only chance with a delicate horse who at that point just happened to be very fit and well. So he had his brilliant day. Is he exceptional ? No, I don't think so. Neither is Thirstlecrack. They are just good. And we should be thankful for that.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Need a like button, KS or at least an agree one! We would be delighted to be proved wrong if any of these good horse became exceptional.

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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Quote Originally Posted by KautoStar1 View Post
    …….. Coneygree …….. . Is he exceptional ? No, I don't think so. Neither is Thirstlecrack. They are just good. And we should be thankful for that.
    And I'm sure that we are grateful, but I wonder who's decision it is to run a horse, a horse with a reputation, when in reality it's pulled up 5 from home and simply shouldn't have been entered. It happens all to often and unless the trainer doesn't know his job, we have to ask who it is who makes the decision, or perhaps the demand.

    Alec.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Thistle-Who?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Swan View Post
    He'd always stand a better chance in the King George with less weight on his back, I suppose.

    Alec.
    If Colin really wants to get his horses fired up, he should take them all out for an hour or so, with the BV with hounds speaking and a few hollers, along with much music on the horn about two or three days before each race meeting. Wires these horses up fantastically.

    May be pop a hedge or two with the rest of the field, although that is a bit risky with valuable horses, that are entered in a big race in a few days.

    If I owned any horses, for National Hunt racing, I would not consider any other yard. Colin Tizzard and his brother Joe are masters of the art. None better, very modest and courteous. They would however, have to put up with my instructions to take them out with the hounds before racing.

    In terms of a jockey, especially for the National only Whaley-Cohen will do.
    Last edited by Judgemental; 09-01-18 at 07:19 PM.
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