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  1. #11
    Old nag ycbm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Auslander View Post
    I still think this is odd - if she carried out flexion tests, which were positive, then she DID pinpoint where he's lame, so it would be very easy to scan/xray the joint that was positive on flexion (and it wouldn't cost more than a few hundred quid) I'm fine with the "rest and see how it goes" approach -there's no shame in going down that route at all.

    I'm just a little confused about what Leahurst has said - one of the Uk's leading teaching hospitals saying they can't figure out what's wrong with a horse that's lame on flexion, and referring it to a physio. Something very strange there - there's a big difference between suggesting resting a horse for a few weeks and giving it a few physio sessions to resolve a bit of muscular tightness - and saying "Don't know what's wrong with this lame horse - call a physio.
    I've always understood that you can't isolate one joint on a flexion and that nerve blocks are then required.

    The horse is needle intolerant. They want him in hospital to do further tests, understandably. And they are, being a hospital with expensive manliness to finance, suggesting a full range of tests. That's what Leahurst does. My friends horse was given a full body scan before they nerve blocked, and of course the nerve block showed he was lame in a foot just where we all expected!

    Owner has rightly rejected that on the grounds of cost, and hopefully will find out what we used to know in the old days, before these expensive techniques existed, that a spell out at grass will sort him out without any more expense.
    Small Print: The view expressed in this post is my own. You should take no action on any opinion given without verifying the facts for yourself. Like all humans,I can be wrong. Polite correction is welcomed.

  2. #12
    Old nag Auslander's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by ycbm View Post
    I've always understood that you can't isolate one joint on a flexion and that nerve blocks are then required.

    The horse is needle intolerant. They want him in hospital to do further tests, understandably. And they are, being a hospital with expensive manliness to finance, suggesting a full range of tests. That's what Leahurst does. My friends horse was given a full body scan before they nerve blocked, and of course the nerve block showed he was lame in a foot just where we all expected!

    Owner has rightly rejected that on the grounds of cost, and hopefully will find out what we used to know in the old days, before these expensive techniques existed, that a spell out at grass will sort him out without any more expense.
    I agree, if the vet flexes the entire leg - but if they do it properly, flexing each joint individually, it will be obvious which joint is causing the horse discomfort, so that is the joint that should be investigated. If the horse isn't reactive to flexion, then I agree that extensive investigation is the only way to go, IF the owner is going down the clinical diagnostics route. This horse was apparently reactive to flexion though, so I would have thought that 2.5k worth of diagnostics would be extreme overkill.
    If you re read my earlier post, you'll see that I said I didn't have an issue with the "rest and see" approach. It's probably what I'd do.

    If Leahurst is charging huge amounts of money for full investigations of the entire horse, when they have a positive flexion to guide their diagnosis, they should be called to account for it. It may be a good way to make their money, but it's not an ethical way. I've had professional dealings with them in the past, and Id didn't get the impression that they operated like this, but I guess you don't always see the true picture.
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  3. #13
    Veteran scats's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Auslander View Post
    I still think this is odd - if she carried out flexion tests, which were positive, then she DID pinpoint where he's lame, so it would be very easy to scan/xray the joint that was positive on flexion (and it wouldn't cost more than a few hundred quid) I'm fine with the "rest and see how it goes" approach -there's no shame in going down that route at all.

    I'm just a little confused about what Leahurst has said - one of the Uk's leading teaching hospitals saying they can't figure out what's wrong with a horse that's lame on flexion, and referring it to a physio. Something very strange there - there's a big difference between suggesting resting a horse for a few weeks and giving it a few physio sessions to resolve a bit of muscular tightness - and saying "Don't know what's wrong with this lame horse - call a physio.
    From what I can gather, they would have to pull the horse in for a full lameness work up, obviously at cost, which I think OP would rather not do straight away (do correct me if I'm wrong OP), rather than Leahurst saying they don't know whats wrong with it, get a physio.
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  4. #14

    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Auslander View Post
    I agree, if the vet flexes the entire leg - but if they do it properly, flexing each joint individually, it will be obvious which joint is causing the horse discomfort, so that is the joint that should be investigated. If the horse isn't reactive to flexion, then I agree that extensive investigation is the only way to go, IF the owner is going down the clinical diagnostics route. This horse was apparently reactive to flexion though, so I would have thought that 2.5k worth of diagnostics would be extreme overkill.
    If you re read my earlier post, you'll see that I said I didn't have an issue with the "rest and see" approach. It's probably what I'd do.

    If Leahurst is charging huge amounts of money for full investigations of the entire horse, when they have a positive flexion to guide their diagnosis, they should be called to account for it. It may be a good way to make their money, but it's not an ethical way. I've had professional dealings with them in the past, and Id didn't get the impression that they operated like this, but I guess you don't always see the true picture.
    I think many vets now rely on the machines far too much and have lost the art of feeling what is wrong, my horse had a firm diagnosis of why he was lame and was sent in to hospital for a fairly straightforward op which was done standing yet they still ran through the whole range of tests inc an MRI to "confirm" that he had a fractured splint bone, he had a bill for around 2.5k for diagnostics and less than 1k for the op, he actually did have another injury that was totally missed out despite all the tests being done so yes I do think some will run tests to help finance their practice.

  5. #15
    Old nag Auslander's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by be positive View Post
    I think many vets now rely on the machines far too much and have lost the art of feeling what is wrong, my horse had a firm diagnosis of why he was lame and was sent in to hospital for a fairly straightforward op which was done standing yet they still ran through the whole range of tests inc an MRI to "confirm" that he had a fractured splint bone, he had a bill for around 2.5k for diagnostics and less than 1k for the op, he actually did have another injury that was totally missed out despite all the tests being done so yes I do think some will run tests to help finance their practice.
    Urggh - it's just not right! I had the vet out a few weeks ago, for a non-specific "not rightness" - horse was obviously not sound, but damned if I could work out which bit of him was hurting. Vet watched him walk, trot and turn, agreed that he looked wibbly wobbly, rather than lame, then flexed him systematically, and pronounced that it was both hocks. Owner didn't want xrays/scans, so vet medicated both hocks, and horse is now sound. Bit speculative, but the outcome was good - and it only cost the price of a call out, examination, and steroids. He used the phrase "Old school" at one point, and I thought at the time that it's a bit sad that an eyes and hands diagnosis is now considered to be old school.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Auslander View Post
    Urggh - it's just not right! I had the vet out a few weeks ago, for a non-specific "not rightness" - horse was obviously not sound, but damned if I could work out which bit of him was hurting. Vet watched him walk, trot and turn, agreed that he looked wibbly wobbly, rather than lame, then flexed him systematically, and pronounced that it was both hocks. Owner didn't want xrays/scans, so vet medicated both hocks, and horse is now sound. Bit speculative, but the outcome was good - and it only cost the price of a call out, examination, and steroids. He used the phrase "Old school" at one point, and I thought at the time that it's a bit sad that an eyes and hands diagnosis is now considered to be old school.
    Sadly it is "old school" the vet I now use after the fiasco of my horse and what he went through being "diagnosed" is hands on, he came out and immediately picked up the SI injury that had been overlooked by the hospital who declared him sound.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by scats View Post
    From what I can gather, they would have to pull the horse in for a full lameness work up, obviously at cost, which I think OP would rather not do straight away (do correct me if I'm wrong OP), rather than Leahurst saying they don't know whats wrong with it, get a physio.
    Hi scats you are correct, they wanted him In for a full lameness work up which includes blocks, scans and multiple man hours watching him trot up. As he is lame in both back legs, the number of blocks needed doubles (obviously) and right now I just don't think I want to put him through it. He's a highly strung eventing TB who hasn't been worked properly in a month so he is a handful at the best of times, let alone someone trying to stick needles in his legs! It has only just hit the 7day mark since he went lame, if he had done the splits or a skidding halt in the field, I wouldn't expect him to be coming right yet! Id like to give him between 2 and 3 weeks before I even start looking for an improvement

    Vets are just confused as there is no "X marks the sore spot" on him, and no heat or swelling to guide the way! He is reacting to everything, he's basically saying "ow" to his whole leg being touched so I can understand the vet being baffled about where exactly he is sore

  8. #18
    Not slacking-multitasking
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    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    Aus- we too managed to flex a hock... it was query hock/stifle at the time, physio thought stifle . Decided it looked dodgy, shoves some steroid in rather than nerve block and hey presto.

    OP you have choices you wait and see
    you get the physio
    you take him in reminding them that he is not insured, is not a referral but a first opinion case and they do not have to throw everything and the kitchen sink at him diagnostically if you ask them not to but be a little more systematic about it.

  9. #19
    Old nag rara007's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetinary physio for lame horse- does it work?

    The reciprocal apparatus makes it impossible to flex the hock without the stifle and fetlock unless something very severe is going wrong.

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