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  1. #1

    Default Breeding from a dun stallion

    Ok does anyone know if dun is a dominate colour when breeding?

    I know a lovely dun welsh d stallion who has had his first crop this year. Two are dun, one is bay and one chestnut!

  2. #2
    Schoolmaster
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    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    Firstly you mean buckskin, not dun. He has one cream gene, so has a 50/50 chance of passing this on. Depends on what colour your mare is as to whether you're likely to get a bay based foal or not - what colour is she, what colour are her parent and any offspring?

    Edit: also what colour are the stallion's parents as that may indicate whether he can make black foals or not.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    No I do mean dun.

    The stallion in question is reg in the wpcs as dun as are both of his parents, grand dam and grand sire are also duns so that is three generations back.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    Who's the stallion? I don't think there's been any confirmed cases of true dun in Welsh??

    Seeking history on Jessie, 16.2 grey mare, freezemark 46CA
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    Sorry xena, my reply sounded a bit rude and wasn't ment to be

    I'm posting for a friend who was hoping to use this stallion next year for a bay mare and was hoping to get a dun foal as there was so much dun in the pedigree.

    Why are they classed as dun in passports etc if they are really buckskin?!

    I'll ask her his name again and let you know.

    Thanks for your reply.

  6. #6
    Just backed
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    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    We think it is a lack of knowledge regarding duns or buckskins. In this country, dun is considered to be dun coloured regardless of markings. In the U.S, duns are different to buckskins, they know the difference and we don't!

    We have a buckskin filly yet dun has been put on her passport/registration application and her microchip application form by our horse vet (done whilst the mare was at stud with them). She isn't dun, she lacks the dorsal strip and leg barrings.

    Simply, as we understand it, if it hasn't got a black dorsal strip and leg barrings, it isn't a dun, it is a buckskin.

    Speak to KarynK on the forum - she is a font of knowledge on the subject.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    It's confusing isn't it!

    You would think that would be careful with colour descriptions wouldn't you?!

    I remember looking at the breeding with my friend and all of them were described as dun. Going to start saying buckskin from now on

  8. #8
    Veteran cruiseline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    Most horses that are described as DUN in their passports, are actually BUCKSKIN in reality and it is very confusing for people, especially those who are hoping to breed a colour.

    There are some distinct differences though, here are some good sources that will explain, hopefully .

    http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/dunfactors.html

    http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/buckskin.html

    Hope that helps and does not add to the confusion

  9. #9
    Veteran KarynK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    It's a British thing, was looking at one of those little "guide To" illustrated booklets on colour the other day at a tack shop and sure enough it was WRONG on this and a number of other bits!! So even our textbooks are WRONG! The breed societies are also WRONG and have little understanding of how it all works.

    The cream gene has two effects if you like the first is if it is inherited from one parent it pales the coat according to what the base colour is so

    Chestnut + 1 cream = Palomino
    Black + 1 cream = Black buckskin (1 cream has a very subtle effect on black so it's very hard to spot it)
    Bay = Yellow Buckskin like Cruiseline's lovely boy
    Brown = Bark buckskin that can look brown itself

    Add another cream gene and you get

    Chestnut + 2 Cream = Cremello - a blue eyed cream
    Brown/Bay + 2 cream = Perlino - can be hard to distinguish from the cremello
    Black + 2 cream = smokey cream - can be a sort of fawn colour with the blue eyes

    It's all the same gene at work and is dependant on the base colour of the horse.

    So the confusion came visually as the cream on darker coats can sort of mimic Dun to the untrained eye, but the big clue is when the said "dun" produces a palomino or a blue eyed cream!

    A dun cannot do this and a dun with 2 dun genes will look exactly the same as a dun with 1 gene. Duns have other markings associated with the dun gene such as dorsal stripes (though some buckskins can have these), darker head colouring, leg barring etc. A dun can never produce on its own a palomino or a blue eyed cream.

    Until people start pressing the societies and telling them the difference and knowledgeable horsey people continue to write on a subject they clearly have not mastered then the error will run on!!

    That's why New Forest pony breeders continue to express surprise when a "DUN" produces a supposedly unreigisterable blue eyed cream, though apparently if you call said blue eyed cream a palomino you will get your papers!!!

    They have it so wrong in the New Forest breed that they have banned light chestnuts with flaxen stallions believing that they are responsible for producing banned Palomino's when they turn out "DUN" (buckskin) stallions and wonder why they still get palominos and creams! Go figure, but if you are going to discriminate against a colour, which is fair enough, get you head round the genetics first if you don't want to make yourself look less than perfect!!!

    As far as I am aware the only true duns in the native ponies are seen in Highlands, though I have seen one red dun foal at the new forest pony sales last year (wonder where that came from???)
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  10. #10
    Veteran cruiseline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breeding from a dun stallion

    Quote Originally Posted by KarynK View Post
    It's a British thing, was looking at one of those little "guide To" illustrated booklets on colour the other day at a tack shop and sure enough it was WRONG on this and a number of other bits!! So even our textbooks are WRONG! The breed societies are also WRONG and have little understanding of how it all works.

    The cream gene has two effects if you like the first is if it is inherited from one parent it pales the coat according to what the base colour is so

    Chestnut + 1 cream = Palomino
    Black + 1 cream = Black buckskin (1 cream has a very subtle effect on black so it's very hard to spot it)
    Bay = Yellow Buckskin like Cruiseline's lovely boy
    Brown = Bark buckskin that can look brown itself

    Add another cream gene and you get

    Chestnut + 2 Cream = Cremello - a blue eyed cream
    Brown/Bay + 2 cream = Perlino - can be hard to distinguish from the cremello
    Black + 2 cream = smokey cream - can be a sort of fawn colour with the blue eyes

    It's all the same gene at work and is dependant on the base colour of the horse.

    So the confusion came visually as the cream on darker coats can sort of mimic Dun to the untrained eye, but the big clue is when the said "dun" produces a palomino or a blue eyed cream!

    A dun cannot do this and a dun with 2 dun genes will look exactly the same as a dun with 1 gene. Duns have other markings associated with the dun gene such as dorsal stripes (though some buckskins can have these), darker head colouring, leg barring etc. A dun can never produce on its own a palomino or a blue eyed cream.

    Until people start pressing the societies and telling them the difference and knowledgeable horsey people continue to write on a subject they clearly have not mastered then the error will run on!!

    That's why New Forest pony breeders continue to express surprise when a "DUN" produces a supposedly unreigisterable blue eyed cream, though apparently if you call said blue eyed cream a palomino you will get your papers!!!

    They have it so wrong in the New Forest breed that they have banned light chestnuts with flaxen stallions believing that they are responsible for producing banned Palomino's when they turn out "DUN" (buckskin) stallions and wonder why they still get palominos and creams! Go figure, but if you are going to discriminate against a colour, which is fair enough, get you head round the genetics first if you don't want to make yourself look less than perfect!!!

    As far as I am aware the only true duns in the native ponies are seen in Highlands, though I have seen one red dun foal at the new forest pony sales last year (wonder where that came from???)
    Thank you KarynK you always explain the colour genetics far better than I could ever do

    You have mentioned the highland as a carrier of the DUN gene, I have also seen it in Shetlands, but as far as I am aware there aren't any other British natives that carry it.

    I have contacted the BEF and asked them to include Buckskin on their list of colours when entering youngsters for the futurity. One of my colts had to be entered as a DUN which he is most definitely not. I had to select a colour for my entry to be accepted, this is how the confusion continues

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