google_eyed
stranger
Reged: 14/10/2008
Posts: 4
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Hey all, a first time poster here.
I would like peoples experiences with dealing with stallions. I am by no means inexperienced with horse of all shapes, sizes and mental abilities (or lack of!). I have backed and schooled a number of difficult horses, I have even ridden stallions, but I never had to manage them...so....
I have heard many stories about random attacks, mood swings, difficulties with other horses, punching out with front hooves etc, but I am anticipating some contact in the future. Am I looking too deeply into this? Or what precautions / handling should I know about?
thanks all!
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Frosty_Stockings
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 20/01/2007
Posts: 3248
Loc: scotland
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Having done none of the above I can't help, just wanted to welcome you to the forum 
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Huge thanks to Wellington for making my new signature
For RLF, I was Kao 
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partoow
old hand
Reged: 11/01/2007
Posts: 915
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firstly, hello!
Ok , like everything each stallion is different and just because you have onr does not mean that they will all be like that one ... good , bad or indifferent!!
When i am teaching my staff about dealing with mine i tel them a few things.
We have a mixed yard of competition horses , no covering goes on at the yard. I have always sent my boys away for this asthis helps to keep their two lives separate and they then dont associate me or the girls with 'that' side of life.
They are always stallions and are more 'high' from May to July as this is the natural covering season.
I keep the boys separate from the girls [its not fair on the boys as the mares can be such tarts!!]
We always lead the stallions wearing a chain throught the rings of the head collar usually under the chin but sometimes over. I NEVER think 'oh hes good he'll be fine' as that is the day something happens and some one or some thing gets hurt.
I do have well fenced paddocks that the stallions go out in and on the whole i dnt have the mares next to the stallions but i do have the gelgings and i do have post and rail with a top line of electric[ we also have stud fencing in that there is a gap between the fences so they cant touch but they can see and they do have company.
I never have the stallions tied up on the yard
I am firm but fair with the stallions , but if you are going to have a fight you have to be the one that inflicts the disapline and it has to be meant. This way they have respect.
All of mine, i have 4 on my yard of 22 at the moment are happy well behaved and content. Even the stroppy 3yr old who is like a teenager trying to get the attension of all the girls!!
i do have Jeys fluid around as this is one of the best things for getting rid of girl smells after they have 'squirted' [yuck] everywhere and it is not fair to leave that smell in the air.
I teach the girls not to wear perfume as some can set stallions off, what i have mostly found is the expensive musk one can really set them off but if you wear the same sent all the time they seem to recognise it as 'your sent ' and ignor it.
on the whole i dont let the girls that handle the boys take the chance.
i also only let certain staff members do the handling , having spent time with me doing it.
Apart from that my stallions are kept totally along side the rest in the yard i make the other liveries aware that they must not 'tease ' the stallions and that is all.
I find that i have little problem hacking with other horses , i do have to be carefull with some geldings, and i have found this with all of my stallions that some geldings do set the stallions off and others are like they dont exist. One strange thing that i have not always understood.
My boys are warmbloods and Spanish i did have a native pony stallion once and he thought he was 18h and the most determined to tell everyone he was THE MAN!! Talk about small bloke sydrome!!! Size does not matter that for sure when it come to attitude !!!!
Hope you find some of my waffle useful and good luck
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cruiseline
Reged: 03/03/2005
Posts: 1561
Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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Words of wisdom from partoow.
We deal with our stallions in exactly the same way, no matter how good they are, you NEVER forget that they are stallions. I also find that regular reminders to the liveries is also required!!!!!!!
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 ..MY..  ..BOYS.. 
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AnaTINSELtasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2708
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Firstly welcome to the forums.. 
I would agree completely with Partoow and Cruiseline. We have stallions (as we are a stud) and where possible we treat them like any other horse (so they dont think they are special in any way), and we are always 200% careful with them and NEVER take anything for granted, because as soon as you let your guard down that is when something happens.
We are maybe slightly different in the fact that we have stabled our stallions next to the mares (during the winter) and are also in fields next to them (during the summer), and have never had any problems with this. As we have had our boys from foals and they have grown up in this manner it is nothing out of the ordinary for them.
They all have different personalities both inside and outside the stable, as well as under saddle, and when handling them you have to remember that.
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Touchwood
enthusiast
Reged: 26/07/2007
Posts: 330
Loc: Wiltshire
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Would echo the above really, very wise words!
We have my husband who deals with covering/day to day handling, and then riding and schooling is done by myself and our rider, so its very seperate for them and they associate us with different tasks, as well as obviously different tack for different jobs.
We expect ours to behave as any other horse which includes being polite on the yard even if there are mares around, but its just about being sensible, we wouldn't go and stand a mare right outside their box for them to sniff at, but equally I don't expect them to turn into a raving sex monster when they see one on the yard...wouldn't bode well for competitions!
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BrAndyPandyButter
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 853
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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"If you treat a stallion like a stallion, you'll have a stallion. If you treat a stallion like a horse, you'll have a horse"
That's one of my favourite sayings when it comes to dealing with and managing stallions. If you isolate them, are aggressive with them, constantly -expect- them to misbehave, and constantly try to keep them "under the thumb", then you will end up with a miserable, aggressive, badly behaved animal.
However, laying down ground rules, not accepting bad behaviour, disciplining them when necessary, and allowing a controlled degree of interaction with other horses, will lead to you having a controllable, happy, and sensible stallion.
Letting a stallion get away with biting, nipping, whacking you with his head, barging, going where he wants to go, striking, kicking, cow-kicking etc. are TOTALLY unacceptable in my book. I see far too many owners calling that behaviour "cute", "sweet", or "quirky"... I really don't agree, and that sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a serious behavioural issue.
The only thing I would disagree with that's been said, is the "chain under the chin". I have noted (as have a number of my colleagues around the world), that a chain under the chin can become conducive to rearing in a fairly significant number of stallions. Of course it's not the case for all stallions, but I try to avoid it wherever possible.
Now I'm not sure how much handling info you wanted, but I deal with a fair few "naughty", "problem", and inexperienced stallions, so thought I would post a few of my observations and tips
I see a huge number of people tugging on stallion's mouths if they rear. I really haven't found it to be that effective, and if anything it tends to make them go higher. I use a thick rope attached to a chain. If the boys go up, they're either saying "I'm BIGGER than you" or "I want to go over there". In order to deal with the former, I "spin a loop" up the rope. The loop taps them in the muzzle, which is a shock for the stallion, who will normally realise after 3-4 loops that actually, he's "not" bigger than me, and will stop rearing. It's worked brilliantly with even some "problem rearers". If they're trying to get somewhere, then I'll normally back away to the full length of the rope, and as they reach the least balanced part of the rear, i pull them 90 degrees to the left (now, my rope is VERY long, and I am out of harms way - DO NOT try this with a standard lead rope!!). Each time, he will realise that he's getting further away from the thing he wants to get closer to. Again, they tend to learn pretty quickly to stop rearing.
Also, I do not accept "rushing", or the stallion "leading me". I repeatedly ask the stallion to stop, especially when we are approaching mares/dummy mares. If at any time, he does not stop when I ask him to, then we turn around and walk away from the thing he wants to get to. Initially, this increases their frustration, but soon, he works out: "hang on, every time I try to get to that, we go away from it. But this bloke is leading me to it... I'll just see what happens." It may sound silly, but it's worked time and time again for me. (Even though some of the daft buggers take about an hour to work it out).
To help the stallion to differentiate between normal life and covering time, we tend to use a chain through the mouth (or a chifney is the owner prefers, although sometimes they like to lead them with a chifney which is personal choice). A chain through the mouth is a very different stimulus for the stallion, and really seems to help in saying to him: "this is a sexual situation, it's now OK for you to display sexual behaviour".
With stabling, I think most stallions can be managed best either stabled with stallions & geldings, or with mares (but no other stallions). Introducing multiple stallions -and- mares stabled in the same area introduces a sexually competitive environment, which can make some stallions less manageable. The worst thing, I think, is to completely isolate a stallion in it's own box away from other horses. It's just not fair!
Finally, and I have to add this, as a man... NEVER EVER hit a stallion's penis. I see it a bit amongst the showing circuit - if a stallion drops, then he gets flicked with a whip. Firstly *ouch*!!! Secondly, this kind of thing can prevent a stallion from breeding anything ever again, simply through the fear of having his penis whipped or beaten. Thirdly, it can lead to severe aggression... On that note, I will leave you with this analogy:
If you had a teenage son, and you were sat at an event with him somewhere... If you saw him looking at girls (or boys), and saw that he had an erection; would you stand up, pull out a stick, and hit him in the crotch? No. It's more likely that you'd try to distract his attention, and focus him away from the thing that was exciting him. I think the same should go for the stallion!
Sorry that was a little rambled, hope there's some helpful content in there!
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Touchwood
enthusiast
Reged: 26/07/2007
Posts: 330
Loc: Wiltshire
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Sorry AP, I absolutely agree with what you are saying...but I've now been laughing at my desk, and hoping no one asks me why
Remembering back to my teenage years....some teenage boys could have done with the treatment you describe!
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BrAndyPandyButter
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 853
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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As the male of the species, I could not possibly condone what you are suggesting 
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TarrSteps
veteran
Reged: 09/01/2007
Posts: 1338
Loc: Balham and points south.
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All excellent, experienced advice to take to heart above. Fairness, education, empathy, attention to detail and consistency will always produce the best results.
I would pick out partoow's comment about perfume again, though. I'll admit it doesn't come up much since most people I know who work in barns don't cover themselves in scent for work, but I did once see a real drama at a grading due to it. The owner of one stallion what sitting next to me, wearing so much scent I actually commented on whether she thought that was wise around stallions (huh?). During the finale when all the young stallions came back in in hand and they announced marks etc. she went down to handle her horse (whom she regularly worked with and even rode a bit at home) because her rider was handling another. You could literally see the stallion inhaling deeply, getting more and more excited, while she stood watching the festivities, oblivious. Next thing, he's on his hind end, everything out, rumbling away! Of course the colts around him started to react and the whole situation came very close to disaster in the space of about a minute. Luckily the stallion's regular rider was on the job, hollered at one of his people to take the horse he had and ran over to grab the now very excited boy.
Afterwards he was grumbling about the "silly woman" but I did point out HE was the one with all the specialised knowledge and perhaps he might have mentioned that little fact to her, although I doubt it ever entered his mind.
I had a very "studdy" gelding who definitely reacted to women's scents on occasion. We never had a problem but he did once freak out some strange woman walking by by stuffing his nose in her neck and inhaling deeply!
Edited by TarrSteps (14/10/2008 10:23)
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cruiseline
Reged: 03/03/2005
Posts: 1561
Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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LOL you really made me laugh too. I can imagine all those parents walking around brandishing sticks, just in case their little boys become 'BIG' boys in public, very funny.
I am also one who does not like a chain under the chin, all my horses get a chain over the nose, if needed, I too think it can actually encourage rearing in some cases.
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..MY.. ..BOYS..
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groomsbridge
veteran
Reged: 29/03/2006
Posts: 1222
Loc: Cambridgeshire
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Another here who uses a nice soft smooth brass chain either over the nose or through the mouth.
Also use a chiffney for covering/collecting.
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cruiseline
Reged: 03/03/2005
Posts: 1561
Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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Quote:
All excellent, experienced advice to take to heart above. Fairness, education, empathy, attention to detail and consistency will always produce the best results.
I would pick out partoow's comment about perfume again, though. I'll admit it doesn't come up much since most people I know who work in barns don't cover themselves in scent for work, but I did once see a real drama at a grading due to it. The owner of one stallion what sitting next to me, wearing so much scent I actually commented on whether she thought that was wise around stallions (huh?). During the finale when all the young stallions came back in in hand and they announced marks etc. she went down to handle her horse (whom she regularly worked with and even rode a bit at home) because her rider was handling another. You could literally see the stallion inhaling deeply, getting more and more excited, while she stood watching the festivities, oblivious. Next thing, he's on his hind end, everything out, rumbling away! Of course the colts around him started to react and the whole situation came very close to disaster in the space of about a minute. Luckily the stallion's regular rider was on the job, hollered at one of his people to take the horse he had and ran over to grab the now very excited boy.
Afterwards he was grumbling about the "silly woman" but I did point out HE was the one with all the specialised knowledge and perhaps he might have mentioned that little fact to her, although I doubt it ever entered his mind.
I had a very "studdy" gelding who definitely reacted to women's scents on occasion. We never had a problem but he did once freak out some strange woman walking by by stuffing his nose in her neck and inhaling deeply!
I agree 100% with this. I too had an incident with a stallion and perfume (my own stupid mistake, I just didn't think at the time). I was the Chief Steward at an international show, which was being held at the yard where my horses were in livery. My vet came to check one of my young stallions, as he was slightly off. My groom was busy with helping out in the main arena, so I told the vet I would trot him up. BIG mistake, and one I will never forget. I was dressed for the show, with make-up and perfume on, as you do. As I started to run for the trot up, the stallion got slightly behind me, next thing he hit me on the back with his chest. Luckily I kept my feet, I swung round so quickly, it shocked him and he backed off. He was fully drawn and ready to mount. The vet came and took him of me. He soon calmed down and I got another person to trot him up.
He was not an aggressive, highly sexed stallion at all, he had never even been bred before, he was a gentle boy that you could handle easily and you really would have to look to know that he was indeed a stallion.
A lesson I learnt, and will never repeat. In the racing industry staff are not allowed to wear perfume or even perfumed deodorant at work.
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..MY.. ..BOYS..
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riviera
enthusiast
Reged: 29/06/2007
Posts: 312
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Just out of curiosity what would be your preferred set up for multiple stallion owners AP? Seperate barns etc or ideally not on the same premises as mares?
As an aside, our ex groom used to smack her own stallion's penis with a schooling whip when it was revealed. When she tried to do this to our 3 year old colt my husband stopped her very abruptly in her tracks!
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BrAndyPandyButter
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 853
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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To be completely honest, I have no preferred housing set up. I use the word "may" and "could" a lot when talking about horse breeding, because there are NO absolutes. The only thing I would not promote is isolation of stallions.
Whatever works best for you and your stallions is the best setup. It can become quite complex trying to work out the most harmonious arrangement in barns with mixed stallions/mares/geldings.
For the quietest arrangement - a bachelor herd arrangement of only stallions and geldings. Although testosterone and sperm production will generally fall in this type of arrangement.
For the most reproductively efficient arrangement - a harem arrangement with one stallion and multiple mares. Although the stallion may become agitated whenever mares are moved.
For managing multiple mares, stallions etc. - a mixed barn is absolutely fine. It may not work terribly well for some stallions, but a little bit of moving around, grouping stallions together, having geldings either side of stallions etc. can work wonders.
Further to me saying there are no absolutes: I have a group of stallions I collect from in Wales who live in a bachelor setting. They are all fairly reproductively efficient, and whilst they behave themselves, they are all still fairly sex mad
I also collect from a stallion who lives in a mixed barn, but with no other stallions. He is extremely well behaved, and not overly sexual, but still extremely reproductively efficient.
Finally, I trained some boys earlier in the year who lived in a barn surrounded by mares... they had very little if any interest in mares, even when they were in season. It took us a good few days to get them interested/get their minds on the job!
They're all different! The same set-ups work well for some stallions, and some yards, but not others.
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BrAndyPandyButter
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 853
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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Oh, and good on your husband for defending willies' rights! 
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riviera
enthusiast
Reged: 29/06/2007
Posts: 312
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Quote:
Oh, and good on your husband for defending willies' rights!
It was v funny, he is normally cool calm and collected under all circumstances but he felt very strongly about that one! I was very glad he was there though, the colt normally lives out with his buddy and is very quiet. We had brought him into the stables for a tidy up so he was just reacting to a big change in environment and had dropped his penis and was a bit vocal, nothing more so he certainly didn't need his bits smacked.
Thanks for your thoughts on stabling very interesting, we're currently planning ahead so it's nice to hear what works for others.
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google_eyed
stranger
Reged: 14/10/2008
Posts: 4
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Thanks you all so much, these are definately the type of things I want to hear.
Basically I am returning to producing horses after an absense of a number of years, and I intend to take in stallions for SJ performance testing wheter for competiton or preperation/schooling.
I have only ridden a handful of stallions, all that had been broken previously, not at all aggressive....however I recently rode a 4yr old green stallion that had been broken and imported from the continent and the owner (who would have a considerable amount of experience as a rider) seemed to be (and warned me) of him? I didnt have any issue with the stallion, but she made me nervous of him because she was so nervous of him..so it got me thinking, could I manage this on my own? Down to putting on his front boots while he was cross tied she was telling me to be careful incase he pawed/mounted me? She said she never allowed anyone to enter the stable on their own with him....
I have friends that run a stud with a number of international stallions in conjunction with mares, youngstock, breakers etc all under the one roof. While their ridden stallions seem fine, any time I have seen them take out any other stallion they are freakin monsters that make me wonder...if they werent stallions I would take no notice of it, as it would be trotting/hopping/rearing/bucking, general show boating etc...but as a stallion add they would they actually attack a handler, intead of any other horse backing off their handler.
eg- how would one handle a 3yr old stallion in for breaking when they sometimes allegedly go for who ever is lunging?
Again, maybe I am looking too far into this, but I would rather be prepared for/if the time comes...
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JanetGeorge
Reged: 25/06/2001
Posts: 1121
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Quote:
Remembering back to my teenage years....some teenage boys could have done with the treatment you describe!
And not just teenage boys! I remember in my nursing days we were taught to keep some table-spoons in the icebox of the ward fridge - very handy for administering 'a tap' to bed-bound male patients who couldn't cope with the excitement of a bed-bath!
But, agree wholeheartedly with AP's advice. I am lucky in that my stallion is an absolute gent under all circumstances. He will hack out with mares, graze quietly while they are in a field just a few yards seperated from the fence of his field, and is a dream to handle covering. But I've had one or two that were NOT so good (would have made lovely geldings, I'm sure!) I'd NEVER buy another older stallion again without having the chance to handle him during covering first! Once they become agressive, randy ratbags then curing them is ALMOST impossible for all but the bravest and most expert stallion man!
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CrazyMare
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 23/12/2005
Posts: 3372
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I'm no expert, infact I claim stallion-noviceness HOWEVER I have made a few observations....
A very calm stallion on our yard is wound up by our menopausal, HRT, hormonal YO's wife. It almost seems to pass though to him. He is an angel for our YO, who as a bloke doesn't have the same hormonal changes and rushes each month.
Manners, manners, manners. Although that goes for mares, geldings and stallions. Making sure the boundaries and rules are in place before they get hyped up, once they are on a hormone rush you can't teach anything, just reinforce ground rules that should already be in place.
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