Grinchmare
Reged: 02/08/2004
Posts: 9579
Loc: She's behind you... heh heh he...
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Do they tend to change much from their birth colouring?#
With little Finn - mother is chestnut, sire is chestnut based appaloosa. He (sire) has loud but few chestnut spots over his back end but more though smaller ones at the front, his head is like a mass of freckles.
Finn was born chestnut with a white spotted blanket bum (you may be able to correct me on what his markings are actually called), with some white spots heading up his back, like a spotty dorsal stripe, 1 white sock and a wide white blaze.
He was lighter around his stifles and elbows and his legs were almost golden rather than bright chestnut like the rest of him.
With his winter coat he is going a liver chestnut underneath, you can see it showing through his legs, around his eyes, and his quarters. His mother did the same, born chestnut - though plain, she's not a spotty - and went nearly black in her first winter, then back to and has stayed bright ginger.
I just wondered (getting to the point finally...) if his coat pattern is likely to change? If born a blanket, can they spot out to leopard?
Will remind you of the markings photo wise...
And not the best pic as he was stalking me and flinging round, but you can see how dark he's going...
Ta!!
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Founder member of the "Not a freak - childfree by choice" clique and ruling Wicked Witch of the Northern clique, owner of the red shoes...
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KarynK
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Reged: 02/02/2008
Posts: 538
Loc: Hants
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Mine have all gone much darker chestnut after the foal coat change, but they are from darker chestnut parentage.
Rosa was out of two extended snowcap blankets, yet was born solid chestnut, though I have always thought this marking to be sex related with the boys getting much more white than the girls! She has turned liver but white is appearing rapidly all over her coat, her dad did not have the varnish gene that causes the fading, but mum does and she is going whiter every day. I don't think her dad can pass on actual spots so it will be very interesting to see what happens in the spring.
Kiera out of a solid mare was born with more of a spotted blanket like Finn, but it was more extended and she had patches of white forward of the withers, she is showing white hairs but is not progressing as rapidly as rosa is!
As to if Finn will spot out much more, are you seeing any white hairs around the head or anywhere other than his white appaloosa markings? This will indicate early if he has the varnish. I personally would call him a minimal spotted blanket but he could well start to fade slowly to a near leopard revealing more spots as he goes. Will post some pictures when I can only have broken the laptop screen!
But I did put something together here before http://www.putfile.com/spotties/albums/
if you look at the one titles more rapid, this one has a solid mother and a fewspot father who passed on the varnish, so she progressed from a near leopard and is now virtually a leopard with a bit of blush where the chestnut was solid originally.
Was Finn's dad born with those markings or has he faded to that?
The white on the legs won't change that is fixed and another gene at work, but they might be less distinct over time if he does fade in his coat.
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"A womans place is in the saddle!"
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Vickijay
Reged: 18/11/2004
Posts: 76
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Hi, sorry to ask another question in your question but Ive got my spotty baby and all this still makes my head wanna explode!
She hasnt changed colour (i dont think) this far apart from her black spots going brown when she changed her foal coat but there black again now.
How will I know if she has the varnish gene?
Vicki x
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Grinchmare
Reged: 02/08/2004
Posts: 9579
Loc: She's behind you... heh heh he...
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Thankies. Will ask about his (sire's) coat patterns. Finn has more white hairs appearing around his eyes but they seem to be moulting out, so they were in with the bright chestnut but not staying with the dark chestnut of his winter coat thats coming through now. Have looked at those photos on the link you posted, gorgeous BTW, but he certainly isn't changing as rapidly. The odd white spot or two extra is appearing on his sides but smaller than penny sized and as I say only one or two.
I'll email the lady at Lambrigg tomorrow as they've been really helpful to me when I've asked for info before.
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Founder member of the "Not a freak - childfree by choice" clique and ruling Wicked Witch of the Northern clique, owner of the red shoes...
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Grinchmare
Reged: 02/08/2004
Posts: 9579
Loc: She's behind you... heh heh he...
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Right, if you look at LV on the front page of their website, here just scroll down, C said...
"With regard to colour, he (Finn) will definitely colour out more although this process may take several years to settle to the final version ! Valentine was born pretty much the colour he is now, but blankets are prone to much more change ( unless they are a rare case of not having inherited appaloosa roan, but I can already see the roan on him, so he is not one of these ). To give you a rough idea his blanket and the spots on it will remain, over time the solid chestnut areas will roan and more spots will be revealed ( if you look carefully at the photo of him at the show you will see the shadows of some spots waiting to appear ). He will not be as spotty as his sire, the spots that are hidden under base colour at birth are rarely as loud as those that are visible from day one on a white background, especially the closer they get to the front end of the horse, but he will change quite drastically"
Am currently digesting what that may mean...!
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Founder member of the "Not a freak - childfree by choice" clique and ruling Wicked Witch of the Northern clique, owner of the red shoes...
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KarynK
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Reged: 02/02/2008
Posts: 538
Loc: Hants
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In the mean time I had written this for you!!!!
Unfortunately with leopards, and fewspots it is very difficult to tell as they stay the colour they are born, so you don’t really know until you breed on from them. With the snowcaps it’s a different story as they are born with at least a bit of colour on them as a clue which will fade with each moult, until they look like a fewspot.
Some say that if the spots on a leopard have a halo effect around them then that indicates the presence of the varnish, but I have not really looked into this, the leopard in the photo sequence has this effect though.
There seems to be a lot of variation in how fast horses fade, with some like mine in the pictures fading very fast and others really slowly only really showing more white in their late teens.
The one thing the varnish will not do is affect the spots themselves, they remain, though they can move over a horses lifetime! The one in the pictures can only have one copy of the varnish from her fewspot father as her mother is a true solid, but she has faded much more rapidly than it looks like her half sister will who is by an extended snowcap, so I am looking forward to spring to see what the ½ sister does.
My other filly from 2 snowcaps one of which has no varnish and the other being by the same stallion as the one that faded fast, had no coat pattern, but is now making up for it by whitening at a furious pace.
Re Finn, the white hairs round the eyes makes me think he probably will fade but more slowly like my filly, she has similar markings to Finn but she has more white and had white up her neck and under one ear (see pics) from birth, but she has not changed much through her first coat change except to go dark Chestnut. If it is the Stallion I am thinking of I think he does have varnish, but let me know.
Found some pictures will add some more recent ones later
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"A womans place is in the saddle!"
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Grinchmare
Reged: 02/08/2004
Posts: 9579
Loc: She's behind you... heh heh he...
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He has that same white effect on his stifles, and white spots under his tail and his tail is the same... I can see a few sneaky spots creeping further up his tummy.
Its quite exciting really! So we don't think he'll go as far as leopard but the white will spread then is the general idea?
We'll have to compare at a later date! I can't believe how rich a chestnut he was and how dark he's going now, well, I wouldn't if I hadn't seen his mother go nearly black in her first winter!
You can see the speckles under his tail...
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Founder member of the "Not a freak - childfree by choice" clique and ruling Wicked Witch of the Northern clique, owner of the red shoes...
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cruiseline
Reged: 03/03/2005
Posts: 1549
Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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Sorry to butt in Gingermare, it is a spotty botty question though, hope you don't mind.
Karynk, am I right in saying that a horse who carries the varnish gene will pass it on 50% of the time, unless it is homozygous, if that is possible??
My blanket spot baby is out of a solid warmblood mare, so she doesn't carry the varnish, his father is a blanket spot with vanish. My question is if my baby has not received the varnish gene from his father, will his coat colour and pattern stay the same as it is now, disregarding the change in colour of his base coat, of course. If he does have the varnish gene will he also fade out to a more leopard coat markings.
He also has spots that are half black and half bay, literally divided down the middle.
This is not the most flattering photo of him, but you can just see the bluish markings he has on his skin that haven't come out in his hair. They seem to go around the darker coat edges, I suppose these would be called halo's then, what do they mean.
It is also really strange as the white hairs seem to be of a different texture to the dark hairs of his coat. He also gets sun burn on his spotty botty, oh bless.
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 ..MY..  ..BOYS.. 
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KarynK
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Reged: 02/02/2008
Posts: 538
Loc: Hants
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I personally think that varnish is available in homozygous form, the fewspot I used on the filly in the series of pictures on putfile has a lot of offspring and all of those I have looked at, and quite a number of them have been from true solids like your boy and Gingermare’s lad have all faded. Both mine by this fewspot also have varnish, but from this horse it appears to be very aggressive with the fading of coat colour complete by 5 or 6 yrs. My guess would be that he is homozygous for this fading pattern.
This is coming out again in his granddaughter who’s snowcap father has not faded at all aged 6 I think now but of course the mother has the aggressive form from her fewspot father and the white hairs on this girl are coming thick and fast and not waiting for coat changes, maybe that is something to do with stored white modifiers, thinking out loud here, expressing themselves more rapidly as she has no coat markings as such?
Yet there are others that like the ½ sister of the aggressive varnish filly from a different stallion pictured above, similarly marked to gingermare’s who are going to go much more slowly.
So I think there are degrees of rapidity in the varnish, maybe linked to stored white modifiers.
Here are some close up halos around spots, I’m not convinced on this one yet. http://homepage.mac.com/gretchenlinton/images/spotnuggetclose.jpg
I would say that your boy if he has not inherited this would not noticeably fade until old age. Appaloosa does do funny things to base coats, and they tend to go darker in the winter and it's then that in faded horses you will see the remnants of their base colour patches that have faded. In fact it fooled and eminent researcher into making quite a silly statement about a fewspot based solely on it having a black spot in it’s mane! The horse could only have been a chestnut as it had a lot of offspring and had never produced a bay from a chestnut! But chestnuts do get black smut marks and maybe that’s what this spot was?
What you are seeing under the coat is mottled skin! It doesn’t necessarily result in spots and in Appaloosas it does not fix and will move around a bit! So dark pigmentation does not always derive dark hair to form spots, but you will find extra spots appearing.
Looking at your boy, bet you were pleased with him, the bottom picture at the grading (how did he get on? Thinking of talking mine next year!) If you look under his markings you can see a pink area of skin, I would speculate from that that he is a composite pattern and that he has a snowcap as well as a spotting pattern. My sister and I were debating this in my filly was she a snowcap with islands of colour or was she a leopard or a composite of both? With her I think that though her father was born a snowcap it is in fact hiding his mother’s leopard pattern and that once again when it meets a solid out come the loud spots. Interestingly his daughter out of a leopard mare turned out an extended snowcap with a lot of white!
You are supposed to be able to feel the spots on an appaloosa in the dark, and on mine they are raised in winter coat! But certainly from my experience of snowcaps and composites with the pink skin, the white hair is silky and not always thick especially in summer, hence the sunburn risk, neither of my two have this so I am using it to support my theory that they are only spotted with no snow cap, so there is something else in this me thinks!!!
I had a lady approach me at a show this year, she had purchased a New Forest mare and it had turned 3, she showed me the picture as it turned 3 it changed colour! It went white all over. I asked and it had stripy feet and sclera! It turned out that an Appaloosa stallion had got out!
One things for certain you will never get bored!!
Yes we will have to watch this little lot closely in the spring and see what changes they have planned! I suspect that Finn will go quite slowly so you will have striking colour for a long time yet but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he doesn't end up a rich chestnut in the spring, keep your fingers crossed, he is growing up really fast isn't he with a big spotty botty, just noticed the picture in the sigi, yes I think he might well go back to a richer chestnut in the spring in time for shows!
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"A womans place is in the saddle!"
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Pendragon
newbie
Reged: 16/09/2007
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany
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@gingermare: I think your boy will colour out. How many spots there will be shown - nobody can answer that.
With basic colour chestnut change of colour can happen quickly.
Filly foal three weeks old:
http://www.knabstrupper-of-independence.de/images/fotos/fohlen/html/camouflage.html
One year later:
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cruiseline
Reged: 03/03/2005
Posts: 1549
Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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Quote:
Looking at your boy, bet you were pleased with him, the bottom picture at the grading (how did he get on? Thinking of talking mine next year!) If you look under his markings you can see a pink area of skin, I would speculate from that that he is a composite pattern and that he has a snowcap as well as a spotting pattern.
I am really pleased with him, I can't wait to see some recent pictures of how he looks now, I haven't seen him since the evaluation  . he is due to be weaned soon. I think he is going to be quite a dark bay when he matures which will look really striking with that white bottom.
At the BEF Futurity he received a 1st Premium The judges said that they liked him when they saw him stood up, but then REALLY liked him when they saw him move. One of their comments was that they had not seen a foal that moved with such power for a long time. This is one of the reasons that I used the Appy stallion on the mare. I wanted a more powerful engine, and I got it He was very bum high for the evaluation, but when he moved, he really picked up the front end and was so up-hill.
There was no bias either way about his bloodlines (Warmblood x Appaloosa), with the exception of the vet, who did comment that he had never seen a quarter horse excel at dressage. I commented that he was not a quarter horse, he was a warmblood cross and several of them has done very nicely at top level
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..MY.. ..BOYS..
Edited by cruiseline (16/10/2008 06:46)
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embonaught
member
Reged: 13/03/2007
Posts: 122
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I do love a nice spotty! Seems there's a little collection of spotty foals this year, they'll be taking over the world soon!
I have a mare I bought as a 'bay roan' four years ago. It was only when an appaloosa judge saw her at a yard she was visiting that we discovered she's a snowflake. It's amazing every winter and spring to watch her coat changing. At the moment she's a real rich gingery/pinky colour but when she's clipped she goes liver with white on her bum. Every year she gets more defined white bits. She's yummy. She's also starting to get a few Toytown spots - it's the only thing they have in common!
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KarynK
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Reged: 02/02/2008
Posts: 538
Loc: Hants
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I find a lot of people find it hard to judge American types because they are very differently built to what we are used to.
But when these horses work wow! There is an abundance of power speed and agility with a very level head and intelligence especially the cow horses, they are not very big but they ride like a 16hh. I have found that they really do compliment competition types and the “engine” seems to be a powerful gene especially on first outcross! I had a judge approach me after making one of mine youngstock champion at an open show and ask after her breeding, she wanted to know where the backside came from!
I am definitely taking the TB/Appaloosa above to BEF Futurity next year and with luck the foal from her half sister that I am expecting, I hope more appaloosa breeders will follow as well, but I did have the thought of taking the reining bred filly and putting her in the pony section out of curiosity, I do hope that the BEF considers expanding their remit and adding some more categories, reining after all is a sport! But it would be nice for an all-round category to encourage breeders of riding horses as well.
Some Vets are so helpful aren't they, I don't expect many dressage riders go out to buy Quarter Horses if they did who knows, after all Native can excell! Equally it would be interesting to see a warmblood rein or work a cow! Though I did know a QH x TB that was a very good eventer!
When you get some more pictures of him let us have a look! I really must get some more of mine as well but the nights are drawing in and I need to change the camera batteries!
How about it gingermare Futurity next year, blind them with spots?
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"A womans place is in the saddle!"
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Grinchmare
Reged: 02/08/2004
Posts: 9579
Loc: She's behind you... heh heh he...
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Why not!!!!
Where is the northern england one? If someone tells me where and when I'm sure I can take the little demon!
Its just so funny reading yours and Cruislines comments about the bum high and where did they get that bottom from - its just the same with him! he has the peachiest round bum, but then his mother for a 3/4 TB has a gorgeous big round bum too!
I have to say the reason the stallion won me over, I wasn't convinced about spots would you beleive - was his nature and him being such an allrounder - he has BD points and is now eventing at novice - and there is a lot of QH in his breeding. I've always had a thing for QH's so it was hmmm, lovely nature, all rounder, local and with QH breeding - OK we'll have a go! And needless to say I'm a total spotty convert already!
So next year is officially the year of the spotties!
Got some quick pics this morning...
Definately growing
The cute bum
Butter just wouldn't melt...
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Founder member of the "Not a freak - childfree by choice" clique and ruling Wicked Witch of the Northern clique, owner of the red shoes...
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cruiseline
Reged: 03/03/2005
Posts: 1549
Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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He is adorable Gingermare, and yes I am a sucker for the Appy/QH temperament, they are just so chilled about everything, but on the other hand they also have such explosions of power, but only when asked for or when needed.
What a peachy bottom he has, fabulous
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..MY.. ..BOYS..
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emilymeg
stranger
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 11
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Hi 
I am fairly new to posting on here, but post elsewhere and read this forum!
Have read this thread with interest, as I have a foal out of a chestnut mare with a white-with-black-spots spotty dad, foal was bay but is now going white in patches, but no sign of spots yet! Shes now 6 weeks.
Hope to learn lots reading this and other threads 
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Grinchmare
Reged: 02/08/2004
Posts: 9579
Loc: She's behind you... heh heh he...
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Quote:
Hi
I am fairly new to posting on here, but post elsewhere and read this forum!
Have read this thread with interest, as I have a foal out of a chestnut mare with a white-with-black-spots spotty dad, foal was bay but is now going white in patches, but no sign of spots yet! Shes now 6 weeks.
Hope to learn lots reading this and other threads
We demand pictures!!!!
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Founder member of the "Not a freak - childfree by choice" clique and ruling Wicked Witch of the Northern clique, owner of the red shoes...
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KarynK
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Reged: 02/02/2008
Posts: 538
Loc: Hants
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Gingermare don’t think the venues are out yet but I’m sure our person on the inside Cruiseline can let us know he will really make an impression!
I was always a big fan of QH’s since I used to get a look at my sisters horseman magazines as a child (no unsupervise visits allowed) so that’s probably why I have taken to Western now. As a kid I loved the King Ranch cow horse stock, but can’t afford them so I ended up leaning towards working appaloosas, just as capable half the price, but some of the girls carry those lines and my reining filly is linebred on the QH Doc O’lena, through his Appaloosa son Ima Doc O’lena.
Emilymeg Welcome to the spotty niche! Echo PICTURES
As you might have gathered it’s quite a lottery as to what you will get with anything to do with spots! But usually with a single leopard parent like yours, who is descended itself from leopards, the white will progress and probably next spring you will start seeing some spots revealed as this happens but she will probably change a lot over the next few years so you will never get bored and everyone will think you’ve got another new horse!
Personally I think that the varnish like this is the most minimal expression of coat colour above just the characteristics (Hooves sclera and mottled skin) and that when it progresses it reveals the spots generated by some of the mottled skin, but if a horse doesn’t have a lot of mottled skin you get the roan like pattern, snowflakes and varnish with an airbrush like effect. But leopard descendants should have quite a bit of mottled skin to pass on.
My sister and I think that this is probably how the Nez Perce in the USA ended up with their Appaloosas, from an individual that coloured out late like Jana’s horse on this forum did or perhaps they got one or two with just characteristics. They were towards the end of the queue for horses so to speak being in the Pacific Northwest so any spotted individuals probably would have been kept by other tribes on the way. Or of course they stole them! But they seem to have been a fairly liberal tribe so possibly not? So an accidental crop out or two might have formed a breed. It would be interesting to do some genetic research around this as costs of the required DNA tests have come down (Dissertation idea for someone!).
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"A womans place is in the saddle!"
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