ballyshan
journeyman
Reged: 04/06/2008
Posts: 94
Loc: ireland
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I absolutely love this stallion but am a bit apprehensive about ordering semen as some people have said the quality is not great.Saw a few of his horses jumping in lanaken and loved them.they have the most terrific back end over a fence.Has anyone used him and if so how were things looking under the microscope?Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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www.ballyshanhorses.webs.com
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AndyPandy
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 839
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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Historically, Clinton's semen was often of questionable quality, and fertility does appear to be a highly heritable trait.
However, having chatted to a number of agents for CO, there are varying reports. I've heard everything from "his semen is notoriously bad", to "80%+ in foal on the first cycle". Now, that statistic was only based on a VERY small sample of mares in Australia, and isn't statistically significant. However, unless the agent is lying, then it's a good sign of potential fertility.
I think, what happens far to often over here, is that frozen semen is used by a vet or stud that is inexperienced in frozen-thawed inseminations. The semen may "look bad" (have motility of 30-35% post thaw), and the immediate response of the vet/stud when the mare is not pregnant is "oh well, I didn't think she would take, the semen quality looked awful". This is not a fair observation. Post-thaw motility is only a very vague indicator of possible fertility. It is more likely to be the vet/stud's handling/insemination techniques, or the mare, that caused the problem.
There are a good number of frozen foals by CO on the ground, and if people are getting first cycle pregnancies, then the semen is fertile. I think you just need to make sure it's coming from a reputable source, and that you use a specialist stud/vet to do the breeding work.
Hope that helps.
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Breeze_mum
enthusiast
Reged: 15/09/2008
Posts: 322
Loc: Berkshire
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Hi, I also love this stallion and have been interested in Cumano also for use next year (if he is available). I have heard similar things re his semen and I wondered if there is usually an agreement in place if the semen is of very poor quality when received another stallion could be used or another batch sent?
My own view is that it would be worth a try, particularly with these wonderful stallions, as obviously you can view motility and quality before insemination - after all, it only takes one to get through 
However, if it did look a bit poor upon receipt and the mare did not take, with the owner of the stallion in full awareness of the chances, could an agreement be drawn up as above?
This probably makes little sense but hopefully you know what I mean
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AndyPandy
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 839
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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Unfortunately, as motility does not equal fertility, this would not happen. You can get frozen semen that has 65% post thaw progressive motility that produces NO pregnancies, and equally, you can get frozen semen that has 35% post thaw progressive motility that has a 70% per cycle pregnancy rate.
There are NO lab tests to reliably predict the fertility of frozen semen. If the stallion has produced pregnancies from frozen semen, only then should his frozen semen be considered fertile.
Depending on the stud terms you may get 2-3 doses, but it will probably be limited to a certain number of doses per stud fee. This is why I say you should look at using a good specialist vet/stud. You should also use it on a younger mare (4-10 years old), and make sure you have a full reproductive soundness workup done before you begin. It's a false economy not to.
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Breeze_mum
enthusiast
Reged: 15/09/2008
Posts: 322
Loc: Berkshire
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Thank you for the advice. The mare I am considering is a 5 year old holstein, due to foal for the first time next June. I am also lucky enough to have access to an excellent vet and AI technician so I think, given both of these stallions, I would be willing to chance it for a season. I myself am very new to breeding though so very much rely on the knowledge of others and their advice, so really appreciate your time on this
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Breeze_mum
enthusiast
Reged: 15/09/2008
Posts: 322
Loc: Berkshire
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Ballyshan, do you think you would use him given this?
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AnaTINSELtasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2699
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Cornet Obelensky does have poor semen, just like his sire Clinton. The Cassini I (sire of Eurocommerce Berlin), Corrado I stallion lines are known for poor quality semen. This has nothing to do with inseminators etc, that is just how it is. Yes pregnancies have been achieved, but I know of people who have used the chilled semen with the best repro vets and still not got mares in foals.
I do agree fully with what AP has said above regarding the frozen semen.
Also if using some of these stallions dont expect to have the best deals on them, because the most important markets for them is Germany and Holland.....unfortunately the mares in the UK are not always high on the lists of these stallion owners. 
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AndyPandy
old hand
Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 839
Loc: Oxfordshire, UK
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There we go - I would trust this info... probably more reliable from someone impartial than from a semen agent!!! 
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Breeze_mum
enthusiast
Reged: 15/09/2008
Posts: 322
Loc: Berkshire
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yes, tis a minefield isn't it. Worst bit about breeding seems to be stallion selection. I have another mare who is in foal currently to a son of Cassini I - I don't suppose there is a chance of the grey gene hopping across to this foal? (Sire is bay).
Ballyshan I owe you a guiness as I seem to have side tracked your post will buy you one if ever you get over here 
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ballyshan
journeyman
Reged: 04/06/2008
Posts: 94
Loc: ireland
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thanks everyone for contributing.sorry have been out all day getting horses ready for goresbridge.At least you got on with it without me.I still want to use the best stallions i can and will check out the agents for cornet.Dont think it will put me off anyway.its worth a go if you want the best you can find.We also have semen from clinton and have yet to use it so fingers crossed for a pregnancy.
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