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AndyPandy
old hand


Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Breeding myths...
      #2808770 - 23/02/2008 11:46

I thought I would post this to debunk some popular breeding myths before we get into the breeding season properly... please feel free to make any additions you like!

My mare absorbed the embryo

Sorry, but this one is a myth. Despite the fact that stud vets al over the globe still use the terms "absorb" and "resorb" and "reabsorb", it has been shown that this does not occur. Fluid associated with the embryo is absorbed by the uterus, but the embryo itself is aborted and is ejected through the cervix during the next estrus cycle, as the uterus is simply not capable of breaking down and absorbing embryonic tissue.

Mares have a 28 day oestrus cycle

Humans have a 28 day cycle. The typical mare’s cycle lasts for 21 days, although every mare is different and some mares may have shorter or longer than average cycles.

Old mares experience menopause

While it is true that some older mares are less fertile, there is no equine menopause, as such. Some mares may “shut down” after the age of 20, but this is not a universal occurrence.

Old mares have old, damaged eggs, and will produce foals with problems such as bad legs, deformities etc.

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have. These older eggs may not be as viable, and so may be less likely to produce pregnancies. However, DNA is DNA, and the genes in each egg remain unchanged, whatever the age of the mare (and the egg). Environmental factors and mare/stallion genetics cause these problems, not old eggs!

My mare cannot be successfully bred using AI, and must be covered naturally to become pregnant

There may be a variety of reasons why this may appear to be the case, but generally it is because the mare has delayed uterine clearance issues. During the teasing stages of natural covering, the mare releases oxytocin which helps to clear the uterus of any post breeding debris and fluid. Exactly the same results can be achieved with judicious use of AI and oxytocin administration.

Having a mare around a stallion will cause her to go into estrus

This myth stems from the fact that mares show signs of being in season when they are presented with the required stimulus (i.e. a stallion). Some mares cycle silently, and will only show any sign of being in estrus when a stallion is nearby. Stallion presence does NOT cause estrus.

My mare had a reaction to the semen extender

Extender is extremely unlikely to cause a reaction in the uterus of the mare. It is possible however, that if the mare is sensitive to a particular antibiotic, and that antibiotic is present in the extender, that it may cause excessive uterine inflammation. However, blaming the extender for failure to achieve a pregnancy is short-sighted and it is strongly suggested that all the other possibilities are investigated first.


I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!

No you didn’t. Mares continue to show estrus signs for 2-3 days after ovulation in some cases. What probably happened is that the mare was taken to stud after ovulation, but while still showing this post-ovulatory estrus behaviour. It is not physically possible to “knock off” a follicle – otherwise everyone would drive their mares around in order to perfectly time ovulations.

X-rays kill sperm when they are scanned in airport security

There is no research that supports this theory. In fact, studies that have been undertaken show no reduced fertility of sperm exposed to x-rays.

Pregnancy rates are higher in the wild than they are managed breeding programmes

While this may be true in a poorly managed programme, in a well managed programme it is totally false. We manage to breed mares which, in the wild, could not be bred and would be driven out of the herd.

Wild stallions breed their own daughters, so inbreeding is totally natural

In New Bolton, Pennsylvania, the equine behaviour centre has studied a feral herd of ponies for over 9 years now. They have never had an inbred foal. When fillies become sexually active, they leave their birth herd, and seek new stallions. Inbreeding is man made, and is likely to be a significant factor in reduced fertility of modern animals.

It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century.

The foal’s umbilical stump should be treated with iodine after birth

Iodine has been shown to be far too astringent on neonatal umbilical tissue. It should in fact be treated with a 0.5% chlorohexidine solution, four times a day for the first 3 days after birth.

Foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into estrus

This was thought to be the case until one farm began worming the mares shortly after birth with an ivermectin based wormer – this almost completely eliminated the scours. It is now thought that the scours are due to the transfer of worm eggs in the mares milk.

I hope you find these interesting. Please let me know if you can think of anymore, or you disagree with any of them


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Bossanova



Reged: 30/11/2004
Posts: 13617
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808794 - 23/02/2008 11:58

Quote:

Old mares have old, damaged eggs, and will produce foals with problems such as bad legs, deformities etc.

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have. These older eggs may not be as viable, and so may be less likely to produce pregnancies. However, DNA is DNA, and the genes in each egg remain unchanged, whatever the age of the mare (and the egg). Environmental factors and mare/stallion genetics cause these problems, not old eggs!





I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur.
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.


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Shilasdair
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 17042
Loc: Hades
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808825 - 23/02/2008 12:18

Quote:


Foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into estrus

This was thought to be the case until one farm began worming the mares shortly after birth with an ivermectin based wormer – this almost completely eliminated the scours. It is now thought that the scours are due to the transfer of worm eggs in the mares milk.





Interesting post, thank you.
I have my doubts regarding the wormer one above, and would like more information (if you have it). What sort of parasites are involved, and are there any scientific studies to back up the stud's experiences?
S

--------------------


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AndyPandy
old hand


Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: Bossanova]
      #2808868 - 23/02/2008 12:40

Quote:

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have...

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur.
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.




Well, I would agree with your disagreement if oocytes were "normal" cells which underwent mitosis throughout the mares life. However, they do not.

The mare is born with a set number of primary oocytes on each ovary. The primary oocytes remain dormant until they are recruited for maturation (ootidogenesis). They are therefore not under the same aging stresses that normal cells are under (no real metabolic activity, no mitosis, no changes to the DNA). Even when they do mature, their meiosis is halted at metaphase II until fertilisation takes place.

Normal cellular aging does not effect oocytes because there is no telomere shortening, because their is no cellular reproduction. So 20 year old oocytes are not any different to 3 year old oocytes.


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AndyPandy
old hand


Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: Shilasdair]
      #2808878 - 23/02/2008 12:46

Quote:

Interesting post, thank you.
I have my doubts regarding the wormer one above, and would like more information (if you have it). What sort of parasites are involved, and are there any scientific studies to back up the stud's experiences?
S




I believe the first study was Ludwig et al, 1984, but many subsequent studies have shown this to be the case. Direct administration of ivermectin to the neonate can cause severe toxicity which can lead to blindness and other complications.

There is still debate over whether the ivermectin prevents transfer of eggs/worms in the milk, or whether is does something else to alter the way the foals gut deals with new pathogens in the first fortnight.

If I find any more info, I will let you know Try it and see what happens though.


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machannah
old hand


Reged: 27/07/2006
Posts: 1115
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808907 - 23/02/2008 13:08

AP - what wormer do you recommend to stop scouring? My chap didnt have anything last time, so i may have done something right by accident!!

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KarynK
veteran


Reged: 02/02/2008
Posts: 1294
Loc: Hants
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808911 - 23/02/2008 13:12

Re what sort of parasites:

I believe that the two species involved in foal scours would be Intestinal Threadworms and Large Roundworms. But I would put my money on the Threadworms as they are passed through the mares milk and they have a short lifecycle so this is probably the culprit, which would make the ivermectin dose on foaling effective at preventing the scours at a young age along with loss of appetite and dullness. Natural immunity is acquired at around 6 months of age with these beasties so they do not affect juveniles or adults.

With the Roundworms the eggs have a sticky coating and no matter how clean the stables and equipment the eggs of these little suckers will be there waiting for years, even on the mares udder!!! And of course when your foal starts eating ma’s dung to get its bacteria hey presto a perfect oportunity!

--------------------

"A womans place is in the saddle!"


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AndyPandy
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Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: KarynK]
      #2808916 - 23/02/2008 13:16

I would go for Eqvalan. Interestingly enough, Eqvalan was also shown to improve sperm quality in stallions about 20 years ago! It's good stuff (always consult your vet, and the wormer vendor before use etc.)

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CrazyMare
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 23/12/2005
Posts: 5989
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: KarynK]
      #2808917 - 23/02/2008 13:15

When you say worm on foaling with an ivermectin, what time frame are you looking at? Worming within an hour of foaling? 4-6 hours of foaling?

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machannah
old hand


Reged: 27/07/2006
Posts: 1115
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808919 - 23/02/2008 13:16

Interesting, I primarily used Eqvalan when I had my ponies etc, and then the market changed and people recommended others so I havent used in a while

I shall go purchase some for my lady and put it my box of important things! Thank you


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AndyPandy
old hand


Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: machannah]
      #2808926 - 23/02/2008 13:22

Within 12-18 hours should do it Will double check and post if anyone recommends a different time frame.

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CrazyMare
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 23/12/2005
Posts: 5989
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808927 - 23/02/2008 13:22

Thank you. Will buy some for my box!

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Shilasdair
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 17042
Loc: Hades
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: machannah]
      #2808929 - 23/02/2008 13:23

QR
I didn't worm my last foal until she was over one year old...had her worm counted regularly and never found a single egg....especially if we're talking roundworms, and threadworms which show up on faecal worm counts, I believe.
The mare hadn't had any worms for a couple of years...and yes, that foal did scour.
Also - if it is roundworm, etc - why would you use ivermectin as many of the other wormers do not have resistance yet?
I'll look up the studies...thanks for the reference.
S

--------------------


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KissMyDonkey
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Reged: 22/01/2007
Posts: 4883
Loc: Expecting...
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808930 - 23/02/2008 13:24

Quote:

I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!




PMSL... sorry... I may have to come back later when I have stopped laughing!...

--------------------
IS a PENGUIN on the EDGE!
I'm still gonna call it BSJA, because calling it BS is just a load of Male Cow Poo!


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kumala
member


Reged: 12/02/2008
Posts: 122
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: KissMyDonkey]
      #2808936 - 23/02/2008 13:31

Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru:), ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare!

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Tia



Reged: 21/01/2004
Posts: 44690
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2808976 - 23/02/2008 14:04

I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.

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MayFlower
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Reged: 25/01/2007
Posts: 5988
Loc: York
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: Tia]
      #2809100 - 23/02/2008 15:31

Quote:

I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.




I wasn't and so haven't treated any foals/mares in this way. But last year my filly scoured so badly we had to put her on a drip could have been a bug but I will try the Ivermectin this year and see!

Thanks AndyPandy - good post

--------------------


My Cat tail survey results are here http://catstat.webs.com/


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AndyPandy
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Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: kumala]
      #2809110 - 23/02/2008 15:37

Quote:

...ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother?




Right, this is nature versus nurture

Genetically, an ET foal is no different to a foal from a "natural" birth. So in this respect, ET and natural foals are exactly the same.

Size wise, I think the mare's uterus is 80% responsible for the size of the foal at birth. Then the foal's genetics determine the amount of growth from that point. So theoretically, the ET foal could end up smaller or larger than a natural foal, although in practise I really don't know what the final difference is (if there is any real significant difference at all).

The argument really comes up when we talk about the foal's upbringing. A lot of ET recipients are old TBs who were too slow or too stubborn to race well. Others are unwanted shires. Generally, they are not wanted for whatever reason (generally untalented or lazy etc.). The argument goes that a grade A SJ mare will have a really hard working personality, and that will be a part of her success. So, when she has a foal, she raises that foal to be like herself... she passes on her personality (to an extent) through nurture.

Now, imagine that particular foal was flushed and transferred to a TB who was pulled from racing at 4. She's been stuck in fields, being a mum/herd animal for a couple of years. She's dosile, a bit simple, and very polite. The foal then, might become lazy, thick and naughty (because mum is too nice to tell foalie off). There-in lies your difference...

Now, I don't know whether or not these foals will have the same potential. It could quite easily work the other way, where the recipient nurtures the foal to be BETTER than if he was raised by his natural mother. No-one really knows.

There was an instance of a cloned pair of mules racing, and they hoped for a dead heat. One came 3rd, the other 7th... due to nurture and training. Who knows which had more of an influence.

In my opinion, nurture is not that strong, especially as we take the foals away from the mothers at 4-6months of age, and then they have several years of human nurturing before competing etc. At the end of the day, the genetics are the same, and genetics are the most major player in what people and animals are able to do.

Sorry if that was a little garbled


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AndyPandy
old hand


Reged: 06/02/2006
Posts: 1170
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Breeding myths... [Re: Tia]
      #2809112 - 23/02/2008 15:38

Quote:

I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.




THANKS TIA!

So glad someone has used ivermectin and had good results - within 12 hours it is then


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SpottedCat
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Reged: 18/05/2007
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Re: Breeding myths... [Re: AndyPandy]
      #2809114 - 23/02/2008 15:40

Quote:

Quote:

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have...

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur.
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.




Well, I would agree with your disagreement if oocytes were "normal" cells which underwent mitosis throughout the mares life. However, they do not.

The mare is born with a set number of primary oocytes on each ovary. The primary oocytes remain dormant until they are recruited for maturation (ootidogenesis). They are therefore not under the same aging stresses that normal cells are under (no real metabolic activity, no mitosis, no changes to the DNA). Even when they do mature, their meiosis is halted at metaphase II until fertilisation takes place.

Normal cellular aging does not effect oocytes because there is no telomere shortening, because their is no cellular reproduction. So 20 year old oocytes are not any different to 3 year old oocytes.




I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

As I say, I know very little about breeding, have no intention of doing any and am just curious as I have an interest in biology.

--------------------


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