flyingcolors
journeyman
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 82
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Can anyone explain to me why British Warmblood Studbooks accept the registration of foals and issue papers/passports without their application being supported by a valid covering certifcate from the Stallion owner?
As we are on the topic of standards set in Germany in comparison to the UK, here in Germany no studbook will regsiter a foal without an official covering certifcate.
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MFH_09
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 20/06/2005
Posts: 8520
Loc: Wynnstay country - the Best!
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Sorry, haven't a clue but must say I wouldn't be happy about it.
How on earth can you 'guarantee' the breeding is as stated if the passport's not been verified by the authorities? Wonder how many people think their horse is by Joe Bloggs and it's by who knows what instead!
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Pat.
Be a pauper - have a horse - preferably a British bred one!
Very proud to be a member of the Dandy Brush, Bran Mash and Jacatex Clique!
  
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Anastasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2812
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Flyingcolours....agree with what you are saying here. Does the valid covering certificate in Germany have to be from an official breed society, or can the stallion owner make one up for themself? As I know of several stallions who are not graded or no longer graded and the stallion owners just make up their own ones, and these are also accepted here in the UK by some Studbooks.
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Pendragon
newbie
Reged: 16/09/2007
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
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What? I am in shock!
A stallion has to be registered at an EU recognized association, so that the stallion owner gets the correct covering list and covering notes. How can someone make a note up himself?
Hang on - that is a joke, isn't it??????
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Anastasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2812
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Am sorry Pendragon.....its no joke. 
There are many ungraded stallions in the UK, or ones that have failed stallion gradings, and the owners just make up their own certificates. These are then handed to the mare owners and the subsequent foals are then registered through some breed societies (as some of the Studbooks have an "Open Studbook" policy, which means that they will register ALL stock whether by graded/un-graded stallions etc).
There are many many stallions in the UK who are not graded, failed gradings or people are just using them on their own mares to produce homebred stock.
A lot of mare owners in the UK are not worried about using these kind of stallions, and while this happens it means that there were always be an area in the market for these types of stallions.
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flyingcolors
journeyman
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 82
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No, this is a total different story.
I did NOT give out covering certificates but 4 foals were apparently given papers from the British WB Association without me signing or giving out the covering certificates as three of these breedings have not been paid for! This is against EU law and rules!
PS The covering certificate is from the Association with which the stallion is entered with and paid the fees for, we cannot make our own that is impossible.
Edited by flyingcolors (06/10/2008 10:55)
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Pendragon
newbie
Reged: 16/09/2007
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
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Well, you have such stallions in Germany as well, but these stallions are mostly registered into stallion books II (without performance), so that their offspring gets a pedigree, although its status will still be pre-book. 
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Pendragon
newbie
Reged: 16/09/2007
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
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@flyingcolours: You are absolutely correct there! And in case that an EU recognized breeding association has done such a thing (fully registering foals without an existing covering note or foaling note) then this is against law!
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MFH_09
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 20/06/2005
Posts: 8520
Loc: Wynnstay country - the Best!
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I know SHB refused to acknowledge the breeding on a friend's horse because its CC was not from a society recognised by them even though, to anyone not knowing, the CC would be valid.
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Pat.
Be a pauper - have a horse - preferably a British bred one!
Very proud to be a member of the Dandy Brush, Bran Mash and Jacatex Clique!
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Anastasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2812
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Quote:
No, this is a total different story.
I did NOT give out covering certificates but 4 foals were apparently given papers from the British WB Association without me signing or giving out the covering certificates as three of these breedings have not been paid for! This is against EU law and rules!
PS The covering certificate is from the Association with which the stallion is entered with and paid the fees for, we cannot make our own that is impossible.
Flyingcolors have you spoken to the breed association in question?? I have to be honest and say that what you have said does not come as a shock to me! You would be amazed at some stories!
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Anastasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2812
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Quote:
Well, you have such stallions in Germany as well, but these stallions are mostly registered into stallion books II (without performance), so that their offspring gets a pedigree, although its status will still be pre-book.
Pendragon, the foals out of the ungraded stallions etc are put into Foundation Studbooks also within the UK.....but many people are not bothered by this, in fact there would not be many people who actually study the passport/breeding papers to know what this means, all they worry about it having a passport and breeding papers (where applicable).
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Opie
old hand
Reged: 19/01/2006
Posts: 1023
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The answer lies in the Commission Decision 96/78
Quote:
Article 1
1. To qualify for entry in the main section of the stud-book of its breed registered equidae must:
- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.
Obviously studbooks do not want to become involved with disputes between stallion and mare owners where stud fees have not been paid to the stallion owner however they do have the right to decline registration of an animal if a covering certificate is not provided at the time of registration. I am assuming from my own interpretation of the wording that if they do register an animal without a covering certificate into its main stud book, then they could be in breach of EU legislation but I guess legal advice would need to be sought to clarify that this is indeed the case.
Evidently and returning once again to the same decision 96/78 Article 1
1. To qualify for entry in the main section of the stud-book of its breed registered equidae must:
- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
Therefore if a studbook lists a number of recognised studbooks, or "breeds" in its guidelines the studbook must by law register those animals into its main studbook (Register) providing it is accompanied by a covering certificate. The legislation does not stipulate from where and by who the covering certificate should come from but if one is provided by the stallion owner the animal must be registered.
My interpretation of it all is that if no covering certificate is provided the Studbook has the right to decline registration of the animal and legally MUST decline it.
If no satisfactory response is obtained from the studbook after lodging a formal complaint in writing within six months, then a formal complaint can be submitted to the EU commission, they will then investigate and should the studbook be found to be in breach of the legislation they may be fined, or at worst have their PIO rights revoked.
Hope this helps.
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flyingcolors
journeyman
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 82
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So how could they have established full papers without my covering certificate if that is against the law???
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Anastasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2812
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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Flyingcolors, it seems that you may need to speak to the Studbook who issued the papers/passport to get your questions answered.
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flyingcolors
journeyman
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 82
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I have just spoken to them and they are very astonished and will try to find out how they could establish papers. I wonder what will happen once they find out there are no covering certificates from me at all.
I hate to be cheated, especially from people that claim to be your friend.
Edited by flyingcolors (06/10/2008 11:59)
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Anastasia
Reged: 30/12/2004
Posts: 2812
Loc: Over The Rainbow
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It just shows you what people will try, and how dishonest they can be! Good luck, would be interested on hearing the outcome.
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Opie
old hand
Reged: 19/01/2006
Posts: 1023
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Indeed it happens in Germany, Holland, France etc the UK studbooks are no different from those on the continent as that is what EU law dictates, progeny from ungraded parents are simply registered i.e. in the the Cheval De Selle register of the SF, book II of the Hanoverian, or the Reg B of the KWPN.
As it stands, the majority of progeny sired by a stallion that is approved or licensed by a British Stud book will often find itself being registered into the same book within the main book as ungraded stallions in the continental studbooks giving them no greater status out with the studbook with which they are licensed or approved.
The latter generally has no effect within the UK, however foals sired on the continent by these stallions are at a disadvantage if paperwork is of importance to the breeder.
The EU laws are put in place to prevent discrimination of fair trade between member states and yet the continental studbooks are evidently able to do so as the laws stand.
We do have a voice but changing laws is a long and tedious process and the British politicians that represent us when these decisions are in the hands of the EU lawyers often have little understanding of how studbooks operate and fail to grasp how we are penalised.
@ Flying colours I have no idea how this has happened but if you have been affected in some way contacting the studbook in question would be the first step.
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Opie
old hand
Reged: 19/01/2006
Posts: 1023
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Glad to hear its worked out for you this time and hope that the necessary actions will be implemented. 
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MFH_09
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 20/06/2005
Posts: 8520
Loc: Wynnstay country - the Best!
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I'm not being funny or smarmy about this at all, don't think that, but perhaps the policy of no covering certificate or mare allowed home/semen not sent unless it is paid for - even between friends - needs to be heeded then things like this shouldn't happen and nobody would be out of pocket.
I do hope you get this sorted to your satisfaction, it leaves a very nasty taste in your mouth when it's so called friends too.
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Pat.
Be a pauper - have a horse - preferably a British bred one!
Very proud to be a member of the Dandy Brush, Bran Mash and Jacatex Clique!
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Ciss
Reged: 07/03/2005
Posts: 862
Loc: Buckinghamshire
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Quote:
Am sorry Pendragon.....its no joke.
There are many ungraded stallions in the UK, or ones that have failed stallion gradings, and the owners just make up their own certificates. These are then handed to the mare owners and the subsequent foals are then registered through some breed societies (as some of the Studbooks have an "Open Studbook" policy, which means that they will register ALL stock whether by graded/un-graded stallions etc).
Or, if they can pass the vetting, they opt for Weatherbys Non-Thoroughbred Section VII status, where you will find many of the stallions that have been failed grading or refused covering permission by their correct (original) studbook <sigh>
Quote:
There are many many stallions in the UK who are not graded, failed gradings or people are just using them on their own mares to produce homebred stock.
At least the progeny from these will almost all be prohibited from taking part in the Futurity in future years. It may be a small step but it could help to concerntrate the mare owner's minds a bit. But by then the foals will probably be on the ground and the damage will have been done. :-(
Quote:
A lot of mare owners in the UK are not worried about using these kind of stallions, and while this happens it means that there were always be an area in the market for these types of stallions.
Sadly true, but at least presumably flyingcolours' stallions were graded somewhere (being based in Germany) perhaps ZfDP, so at least the mare owners made a responsible breeding decision in the first place. However, the fact that they were not able to come up with the funds to pay for the semen doesn't help her cash flow much and means that they were actually totally irresponsible for deciding to breed at all. If you can't afford to pay the covering fee how on earth can you afford to raise the foal correctly?
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