PDA

View Full Version : high worm egg count, again!



smellsofhorse
06-03-12, 03:45 PM
Last year I had a worm egg count done for my tb x. He was 6 then. A good doer but never has nice poos always loose in varying degrees.
He is a good doer though.
He had a blood test done at the same time but all was fine.

The egg count was high, so he had a course of steroids and a 5 day course of panacur.
The next egg court was about right.
He was wormed regularly with pramox, panacur etc through out the year.
He was on box rest for 14 weeks, still being wormed as normal.
His loosness did improve.
He was allowed turn out from about 5 weeks ago.
He is well and getting fit, but looseness has worsened again.
I've changed his food the last few months now settling on pure feeds.

He is turned out in a big herd of 15 gelding in a large winter field which we do not muck pick.
In summer same herd different field, muck picked but still a bit patchy with muck!
Not everyone muck picks, us that do it, do our best.

Just had another worm count and its extremely high!
Now we have another course of steroids, pramox and then another test to decide what to do.
My older boy is clear! Totally unfair.

Sorry soo long!
Any ideas?

YasandCrystal
06-03-12, 03:51 PM
Frankly you really need to get the de-pooing situation sorted else you will have this continually. Worms get resilient to chemical wormers which is why most vets advocate to just worm dependant on worm count results. But if your results keep coming back high something has to change to break the cycle. Clearly the paddocks have a heavy worm burden and your horse keeps getting reinfected.

Can you not get everyone on side to regular worming/worm counts and regular depooing?

Personally I would move my horse. Worms can kill.

Bosworth
06-03-12, 03:54 PM
Why the steroids, does everyone worm, is it possible that your horse is wormer resistant? Mine get wormed about twice a year and that is only to ensure we pick up tape worm and bots. They are worm counted 4 times a year and are always extremly low. I insist that no horse goes out in my paddocks without a worm count. All horses are worm counted and wormed at the same time, And all paddocks have six months off. we never poo pick in winter, in summer I poo vac once a week. Could new horses be turned out without worming counting? Your horse could be resistant or just one of those horses that is vulnerable to worms. Why did he need worming when he was on box rest or was that just because all the others were being wormed

smellsofhorse
06-03-12, 04:01 PM
The steroids are to bring out the worms so more are killed.
We have tried to get everyone on side to muck pick but yard owner won't make it compulsary.

But I think I will do more research, get some nasty pictures and put up a begging letter!

He was Wormed while on box rest just to keep up with the program.

What's the best way to treat the land?
Some say harrow, some say this makes it worse.
Chemicals to spray the land?
The fields do get rested for a good few months.

YasandCrystal
06-03-12, 04:08 PM
The only way to rid land of a worm burden as far as I know is to rest it and then ensure that it is regularly depooed. We actually spread our muck heap on the resting paddocks in winter, but the heap has mature manure that has become incredibly hot as it rots and then it gets broken down by the spreader and the frost on the resting paddocks. Harrowing fresh poo only spreads the worms about and sours larger areas of grass.

ihatework
06-03-12, 04:12 PM
They say 20% of horses carry 80% of the worms and it's probably true!!!
Some horses are naturally just more prone to worm infection.

When you have a lot of horses on large acreage herd grazing there is always going to be a potential problem. And I agree that in that type of situation if is very difficult to deal with effectively. You would need to keep the field clear of dung, get all horses on a structured worming program and have it tightly managed. Obviously it sounds as though this is not going to happen where you are currently.

FWIW I recently been through a similar scenario with my horse and it contributed to me moving yards. The yard I was on did their best in the circumstances but it was big, had changing horses, sporadic poo-picking and over the course of a year my horse has built up a worm burden. He is obviously susceptible to it, as other horses there don't have a problem, but none the less I felt it better for his long term health to move somewhere that had less turnover & better paddock management.

In your shoes, if you don't intend on moving, I'd look to do some resistance testing and then follow a strict program of equest/pramox only

moana
06-03-12, 04:48 PM
I am not sure why you are using Pramox and Panacur within the same year, unless it encompassed your change of wormer for the year.
Panacur has a high worm resistence, so maybe it is not working with this particular horse, your other horse may not have any resistence to it.

Toby_Zaphod
06-03-12, 04:55 PM
Quote "He is turned out in a big herd of 15 gelding in a large winter field which we do not muck pick. In summer same herd different field, muck picked but still a bit patchy with muck! Not everyone muck picks, us that do it, do our best".

This will be a large contributory factor to your worm problem. A yard needs to have a worming regime that everyone follows & additionally the pasture management (Poo situation) also needs sorting. If these things are not followed by everyone then there will be problems & you're experiencing that now.

smellsofhorse
07-03-12, 02:38 PM
Borderreiver
I will contact you.

Some people on the yard are involved in the intelligence worming program, I do the same thing but use my vets to do the egg counts and advice best Wormer.
The problem is there are a few people that are on a different program to the rest if us, and worm at different times.
Then there are others who point blank refuse to muck pick.

The yard owners arnt interested as its too much hastle.

smellsofhorse
11-03-12, 10:08 PM
Just an update.

nearly all the horses at the yard have had their worm counts done, most are low, some clear and only one 6 year old gelding medium.
My 7 years gelding extreemly high!

So surely it cant been the grazing?

Any ideas?

brightmount
11-03-12, 10:43 PM
So going on the date of your original post, the high worm count was taken before the pramox you have been advised to give?

I would do the pramox, then do another worm count in 2 weeks, and you will see whether the wormer has done its job. So you will know if the problem is resistance or re-infection.

It sounds like your horse has a very delicate digestion which you could address with probiotics to assist uptake of the wormer. I recommend Coligone from H Bradshaw; I would try your horse on that for the medium/long term. I use the powder formulation which is mint flavoured.

If you can't get the worm counts under control, it's definitely a job for the vet.

SO1
12-03-12, 08:31 PM
If lots of them are on intelligent worming then that might be the reason for the low worm counts, it is a really good program. Most of us on our yard are on it and we don't poo pick either. The intelligent worming program looks at horses as individuals which would explain why the horses are not all wormed at the same time or with the same product. The program also incoporates resistance tests so you know what drugs are working and how long they are working for.

I have never heard of steriods being given for worming either and not sure how that will bring the worms out.




Just an update.

nearly all the horses at the yard have had their worm counts done, most are low, some clear and only one 6 year old gelding medium.
My 7 years gelding extreemly high!

So surely it cant been the grazing?

Any ideas?

smellsofhorse
13-03-12, 02:48 AM
I have never heard of steriods being given for worming either and not sure how that will bring the worms out.

This is advice from my vets, last year and this year so whatever the reason its meant to help!

Yes i agree th intelligent worming is a good idea.
I basically do the same thing but wiithout paying a subscription fee.

To recap, last year he was high, had steriods and a pramox.
He had worm count in October and was clear but due to worm counts not showing tape worm he was given Pramox.
Then in December we did the 5 day panacure for the red worm.
He was already on box rest when given the panacure and has only been turn out for 4 weeks now.

He had a worm count a couple of weeks ago and it was extreemly high so had steriods and a pramox, the plan is to worm count in 4 weeks.

TigerTail
13-03-12, 06:52 AM
Also have never heard of steroids to bring out worms, and my sister is a vet....

You need to be rotating the drugs you use so the worms arent becoming resistant to the wormer. So next time to me you'd want a double dose of strongidP.

Also be very aware of the amount of high chemicals you are putting into your horse - his stomach lining and friendly bacteria will be taking a massive hit every time you worm, also can have an effect on footiness and poor hooves.

My mare had a high count for a year, despite poo picking everyday and other horses in with her having low count, she came from somewhere that didnt poo pick/worm and had lots of poor horses in on a regular basis. It took me a year to get her down, and IVe just had my 2nd low count on the trot :D

indie999
13-03-12, 07:22 AM
Quote "He is turned out in a big herd of 15 gelding in a large winter field which we do not muck pick. In summer same herd different field, muck picked but still a bit patchy with muck! Not everyone muck picks, us that do it, do our best".

This will be a large contributory factor to your worm problem. A yard needs to have a worming regime that everyone follows & additionally the pasture management (Poo situation) also needs sorting. If these things are not followed by everyone then there will be problems & you're experiencing that now.

Agree I would move if I could if the regime and house keeping is this poor. Am wondering why steroids too? If the housekeeping is poor then your horse and all the others are just reinfecting always so I cant understand the steroids..seems a bit harsh as they can cause problems too! Move and choose somewhere that a regime and paddock clearing is carried out.

Bosworth
13-03-12, 07:44 AM
your horse is having too much wormer, Pramox is extremely strong and fast acting, panacur guard is much weaker and use of Guard can lead to resistance, both wormers treat the same worms, but pramox is more effective. I would be convinced he has a resistance, and your regime is likely to make that regime worse. if the others are all coming in low and they are on the same grazing as yours then the paddock maintenance is not the issue, it is the resistance in your horse. Your vet is giving your horses steroids with no proof of that working and as we have all said, no one has ever heard of giving steroids before worming. I am very wary of many vets worming programmes, they are stuck in the dark ages in many cases. several years ago i had a horse with severe squits, the vets insisted it was worm damage and he was given Panacur Guard once a month for 5 months. He was very ill. never once did they worm count him, or blood test him. They did faecal samples but there was never any evidence of worms. I am convinced he had a virus, and the repeated use of wormer was keeping him low. now I do not rely on vets for my worming advice. I go to Westgate for worm counts and sort my programme out myself. I have low counts every time.

Bosworth
13-03-12, 03:45 PM
Absolutely, and I find Westgate fantastic for both their service and their advice

ISHmad
13-03-12, 05:09 PM
He had worm count in October and was clear but due to worm counts not showing tape worm he was given Pramox.
Then in December we did the 5 day panacure for the red worm.
He had a worm count a couple of weeks ago and it was extreemly high so had steriods and a pramox, the plan is to worm count in 4 weeks.

That is far too much wormer for such a short space of time. The Panacur wasn't needed as the Pramox would deal with red worms as well as tapeworms, encysted, bots and everything else. Nor do you need to give Pramox every time you worm. You can use Equest for everything except tapeworm and Equitape will do just tapes when needed.

Westgate Labs are fantastic, we use them and are delighted with their service and the advice that they give. It would be worth you joining their FB page if you aren't on there already as well, some very insightful and thoughtful threads on there.

I found out recently that my horses have a resistance to Panacur, won't ever be using that again. They had their first non low or nil counts ever after using the stuff. Back to Equest and Equitape for us. We don't use Pramox as the horses really turn their noses up at it.

ester
13-03-12, 05:19 PM
out of curiosity what is 'extremely high'?

ISHmad and bosworth re the too much wormer.. the pramox was only used due to the high count a couple of weeks ago (about 8 weeks after the panacur at a guess) It is correct to give a 5 day dose of panacur/equest nov/dec to clear the encysteds before spring which is what they op was doing. It is impossible to tell whether the panacur worked or not unless a sample was taken much sooner after the dose. It is just as likely that the horse has been reinfected off the grazing.

The dose I would question would be using pramox in the october given the low count, the op could have just treated with praziquantel without the moxidectin (I think it is called equitape)

OP certainly speak to BR, much as we have had our discussions ;) she does know her stuff. IHW/BR is right in a herd of horses there is generally one or two that will always be high shedders.

eta I'm not sure why waiting 4 weeks to re worm count after treatment. 1 (I think!) week later would at least indicate whether the treatment was effective. BR have you heard about the use of steroids in this sort of situ?

SO1
13-03-12, 07:23 PM
I would be concerned about giving steriods and worming at the same time especially as there have been some people reporting laminitis after using Pramox, and with steriods also been linked to laminitis as well I would have thought it a bit risky. Is your vet an equine vet?

xxRachelxx
13-03-12, 07:32 PM
FYI

For those that have said it it is the worms that have the resistance not the horse lol

smellsofhorse
14-03-12, 08:29 PM
I totally trust my vets.
They are extremely well liked and all very experienced.
So if they say steroids then that's what I use.

Pramox is used twice a year for the tape worm and small red worm.

It's obviously not the pasture management as the other horses are low or clear.
It seems to be ge has a resistsnce to panacur guard.

We do rotate the worming program, we used equest every 13 weeks.
But obviously now doing egg counts so only worming when needed.

castleview
22-03-12, 11:17 AM
Hi, I've been reading this thread with interest, and just wondered that as Intelligent Worming was working for the other horses, why you had not called them and asked for their advice. They have a strong link with the University of Liverpool, part of the service is to obtain an opinion from the vets there on what your vet is advising you, and why. They won't try to say that your vet is wrong, but will explain why your vet is recommending the treatment that they are doing, so you can understand more about it, and also advise on any alternative solutions. Must be worth a phone call.:)

MarchMare
22-03-12, 12:52 PM
The only way you are going to resolve this issue is by ensuring that the field your horse is in is completely poo picked each and every day. This will also improve the grass as poos lying on top of grass kill the grass and then weeds (thistles, docks and ragwort take over).
If your yard owner is not prepared to ensure that everyone picks up the poos then he could get a contactor to come in each day and pick up the poos! Alternatively create individual paddocks for the horses and make the owners responsible for picking up the poos each and every day - if they don't then they are asked to leave!!