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Anastasia
13-10-08, 08:51 AM
I am not one to say anything to anybody about how they go about advertising any stallion etc (as that is up to the individuals concerned etc), but what I do hope (like many mare owners) is that people advertise as honestly as possible.

Due to this I decided to do a little "fact finding" exercise on some stallions in the UK, just for my own information, and came across an interesting find.

There is a stallion in the UK (that will remain anonymous) that has done some competition abroad, and is being advertised as competing at 1.20m. Well I contacted the relevant horse sport association for that particular country last week.......and low and behold was sent the full competition record for the horse in question (and I have to say the girl I was speaking to was just superb and very fast with giving me the information http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif).

Sadly it turns out that this particular horse started competing at 1.10m before dropping down a level to 1m before returning to the UK, and never officially competed at 1.20m.

Therefore the point to this thread was to say to stallion owners - if you are advertising your stallions as having achieved a certain level in competition, make sure you have the evidence to back up what you are saying.

As I said above, I am not naming any names etc, as that would not be fair, but I wanted to bring it to peoples attention......as I wanted to show that people are willing to give very misleading information to mare owners. Also to say that it is not difficult to find out the competition record of any horse regardless if they are home or away.. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

timmy1977
13-10-08, 09:01 AM
surely if you feel the need to lie about your stallions quality, common sense would tell you its obviously not good enough!

sallyf
13-10-08, 09:02 AM
As far as im concerned nearly every ad i read for stallions is like this but hey ho while no one polices these things it will carry on happening.
Eventing stallions are one of the worst offenders and Racehorses are even worse.

AndyPandy
13-10-08, 09:03 AM
Very worthwhile bearing in mind! Thanks C!

Unfortunately, a lot of stallion owner's do this with fertility data too... but it's near impossible to check up on pregnancy rates for particular stallions (except TBs)!

koeffee
13-10-08, 09:10 AM
i have just found out this morning that the stallion i have bought is not a medium dressage stallion?? has only 13pt bd which is prelim, he has competed in medium but not as i thought a medium horse. (i think?) but its misleading. im a bit dissapointed but he is still a good school master for me and the odd foal i may get will be for me.

Meg2
13-10-08, 09:20 AM
I think if he has competed at medium he is / was a medium horse and better for you that he is still in prelim points as that means you can compete at s lower level without needing to downgrade.

Foxfolly
13-10-08, 10:26 AM
Surely anyone who does this could be had for false advertising? Not sure if those laws would work on stud fees but if not they should!!

At least with my boy he was so cheap so we knew he hadn't done anything!! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif It was a case of here he is, what you see is what you get!! We liked so we bought him!!

I won't be making any false claims about him, I don't see the point in it, if you get caught out bang goes your reputation!! Maybe I'm too open and honest but I'd rather be that way than a fraud!!

Touchwood
13-10-08, 10:42 AM
Agree with the others that these things seem to happen on a regular basis.
Personally I just do not see the point in stretching the truth, you WILL be found out in the end, and your reputation will be gone.

Anastasia
13-10-08, 10:57 AM
I fully agree with you all. I have only probably touched the top of the iceberg, as I was doing it purely for myself. But I bet there are many mare owners who would not question what people are saying their stallions have done. They would not necessarily go and find out if that was true or not.

I just think its very sad to say your stallion had been placed several times at 1.20m, when its never even done it. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I know that stallion owners will try and market their stallions to the best of their ability, but "the truth will always out" as they say.

argyle
13-10-08, 11:09 AM
Unfortunately I think it is probably another case of buyer beware and just shows how important it is to do your homework on preferred stallions.

Like others have said there is a lot at stake if you get caught fibbing, its also a shame for the responsible stallion owners who are very careful about what goes on theri promotional material etc.

magic104
13-10-08, 12:06 PM
They have done exactly that with a stallion I used except he is back in Ireland. He was not consistent at 1.20 & has been dropped back to 1.10 & below. He has shown no real form at Eventing either but seems to do ok at the lower level dressage tests. Not one to have inherited his sire's ability!! Yet he is reported as

"The son of Robert Splaineís Coolcorran Cool Diamond was brought over from England where he had competed up to Grand Prix level in showjumping." Doesnt mean to say he got round though!

Lord_Horatio_Nelson
13-10-08, 12:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As far as im concerned nearly every ad i read for stallions is like this but hey ho while no one polices these things it will carry on happening.
Eventing stallions are one of the worst offenders and Racehorses are even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested in an example from the "racehorses are even worse" category. It would not be defamatory to name names as you are obviously true whilst they are not http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ColourFan
13-10-08, 12:38 PM
I think it is the responsibility of every mare owner to thoroughly check with the official sources before breeding the mare to a particular stallion.

It is very common practice of stallion owners to 'over praise' their stallions or give out false information about registration possibilities and approval results.

htobago
13-10-08, 01:11 PM
That is really shocking Anastasia! Call me naive, but I did not know that people lied so blatantly in the their stallion ads.

And how stupid when it is so easy to check up on these results!

Are you absolutely sure that this is a deliberate lie - I mean, that there is no possible ambiguity either in the record or in the wording of the ad or anything? Could the horse maybe have improved since returning to the UK and competed at 1.20 over here, or something?

Or could there be a 'translation' problem? Someone on here (I think it was on here) recently claimed their horse was competing 'Advanced Medium' dressage in Germany (or somewhere) and it turned out to be a 'translation' problem - the grade she thought was equivalent to Advanced Medium was in fact more like Novice. An innocent mistake - the person did not intend to mislead anyone.

Sorry - clutching at straws - it just seems so extraordinary to me that someone would tell such a blatant falsehood! I keep thinking there must surely be some mistake. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

sallyf
13-10-08, 01:25 PM
Heres one for starters although obviously not a famous stallion but its just that he isnt a 1/2 brother to the stallions stated but by the same stallion which is one of my real bug bears.
It has to be out of the same mare to be a 1/2 sibling.
http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_15324.html
Actually to be fair most of the info on most of the ads is just being economical with the truth.
Like the ads that say stallion is registered with such and such society so people think it is graded with them when actually it is not.
The racing folk mostly just use poetic license it just amuses me that there can be so many champion two year olds in one year but they just qoute from differant statistics to suit themselves.
I'm not going to get to involved with this as it only causes grief and there is enough of that with some studs anyway.

Anastasia
13-10-08, 01:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That is really shocking Anastasia! Call me naive, but I did not know that people lied so blatantly in the their stallion ads.

And how stupid when it is so easy to check up on these results!

Are you absolutely sure that this is a deliberate lie - I mean, that there is no possible ambiguity either in the record or in the wording of the ad or anything? Could the horse maybe have improved since returning to the UK and competed at 1.20 over here, or something?

Or could there be a 'translation' problem? Someone on here (I think it was on here) recently claimed their horse was competing 'Advanced Medium' dressage in Germany (or somewhere) and it turned out to be a 'translation' problem - the grade she thought was equivalent to Advanced Medium was in fact more like Novice. An innocent mistake - the person did not intend to mislead anyone.

Sorry - clutching at straws - it just seems so extraordinary to me that someone would tell such a blatant falsehood! I keep thinking there must surely be some mistake. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bless you...........you always see the best in everyone...thats the one thing I think is fantastic about you Kt.. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

No ambiguity at all I am afraid. The results were very clear, and I double checked at what height each level was. I have also checked the affiliated records since his return to the UK and he has not been out competing. And on the webpage I seen it definately stated that the results were achieved in the other country, so the owner has stated that themselves.

As I said above, I was only doing a small thing for myself to see what results some stallions had actually achieved against what they are advertised as having achieved.

LynneB
13-10-08, 02:05 PM
it's so confusing, I would have thought "same stallion same mare" would have made it a full brother or sister. so it would only be half brother or sister? Is there any reason why that is? I would hate to give the same wrong information on any of my ads, but that is how I would have advertised the offspring if I had used the same stallion and mare - or have I misunderstood?...as I said on a previous post, this breeding is a minefield http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lord_Horatio_Nelson
13-10-08, 03:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Heres one for starters although obviously not a famous stallion but its just that he isnt a 1/2 brother to the stallions stated but by the same stallion which is one of my real bug bears.
It has to be out of the same mare to be a 1/2 sibling.
http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_15324.html
Actually to be fair most of the info on most of the ads is just being economical with the truth.
Like the ads that say stallion is registered with such and such society so people think it is graded with them when actually it is not.
The racing folk mostly just use poetic license it just amuses me that there can be so many champion two year olds in one year but they just qoute from differant statistics to suit themselves.
I'm not going to get to involved with this as it only causes grief and there is enough of that with some studs anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you on the 1/2 sibling debate sallyf. That is ridiculous to call them 1/2 brothers. In that case some of the Irish jump stallions that cover and produce 300+ foals each year's offspring are all 1/2 brothers... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

On the Champion 2 year old front etc. there does appear to be a lot of smaller racing countries that have Champions and they haven't even won a race! I guess that like you say they have won more money. Each one that advertise as being Champion's should be in the official racing statistics for that year in that country. I guess the majority are advertising for non-racing purposes?

DAHH
13-10-08, 03:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
it's so confusing, I would have thought "same stallion same mare" would have made it a full brother or sister. so it would only be half brother or sister? Is there any reason why that is? I would hate to give the same wrong information on any of my ads, but that is how I would have advertised the offspring if I had used the same stallion and mare - or have I misunderstood?...as I said on a previous post, this breeding is a minefield http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Same stallion and same mare = full brother/ sister
Different stallion but same mare = half brother/ sister
Same stallion but different mare = Nothing! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bananaman
13-10-08, 03:17 PM
You are right........same stallion, same mare would indeed mean full brother or sister.
It is generally understood in equine breeding terms that 'half brother/sister' is 'out of the same mare as' and not 'by the same stalliopn as'. I've always presumed it is because otherwise there could potentially be hundreds or possibly thousands of 'half brothers/sisters but if I'm incorrect hopefully someone more wisely will put me straight! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Keoffee, I have to agree that you have a result rather than a disappointment! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Providing he has indeed competed at BD Medium and knows all the moves etc. you do have a 'Medium' horse. A bonus that if you want to compete at the lower levels you do not have to pay to downgrade him or ride in the open sections, unless your rider group dictates otherwise. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Foxfolly
13-10-08, 03:28 PM
Just to clarify in breeding terms am I correct in the description of parentage is....

Sire / Dam Sire / Dam's Grand sire

Anyone know why they don't consider offspring by the same stallion as a 1/2 brother / sister? It does seem a bit silly to me. I pressume its just one of those historical things that has stuck over the years?
I'm sure they are 1/2 brothers & sister in the dog world, and obviously for humans too!!

sallyf
13-10-08, 03:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are right........same stallion, same mare would indeed mean full brother or sister.
It is generally understood in equine breeding terms that 'half brother/sister' is 'out of the same mare as' and not 'by the same stalliopn as'. I've always presumed it is because otherwise there could potentially be hundreds or possibly thousands of 'half brothers/sisters but if I'm incorrect hopefully someone more wisely will put me straight! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Keoffee, I have to agree that you have a result rather than a disappointment! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Providing he has indeed competed at BD Medium and knows all the moves etc. you do have a 'Medium' horse. A bonus that if you want to compete at the lower levels you do not have to pay to downgrade him or ride in the open sections, unless your rider group dictates otherwise. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Again though this is slightly poetic license isnt it just because a stallion has competed at medium it doesnt mean he got a credible score.
One of my stallions ran in a listed race on the flat and was injured so we wont know for sure if he was good enough to be listed class or not but i dont advertise him as a listed class horse because he won a handicap so he is a handicapper.
There is a differance between particiating and actually gaining points/winning money at that level

LynneB
13-10-08, 03:44 PM
thank you! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

koeffee
13-10-08, 04:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Keoffee, I have to agree that you have a result rather than a disappointment! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Providing he has indeed competed at BD Medium and knows all the moves etc. you do have a 'Medium' horse. A bonus that if you want to compete at the lower levels you do not have to pay to downgrade him or ride in the open sections, unless your rider group dictates otherwise. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i suppose you are right and he has the moves, im a showjumping rider so i can ride but i have short legs!!! he does thing that i dont ask for, his changes are so smooth and half pass is spot on, but im a beginner when it comes to pure dressage http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Bananaman
13-10-08, 05:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Again though this is slightly poetic license isnt it just because a stallion has competed at medium it doesnt mean he got a credible score.
One of my stallions ran in a listed race on the flat and was injured so we wont know for sure if he was good enough to be listed class or not but i dont advertise him as a listed class horse because he won a handicap so he is a handicapper.
There is a differance between particiating and actually gaining points/winning money at that level

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are quite right Sally, I should have elaborated and said 'earned points at'.

At least it is easy to look up a horse's record now and so going back to the OP, I think people are incredible when they put false claims on their stallion's websites.
Perhaps I'm far too honest but I wouldn't ever imagine doing such a thing. I would be SO embarassed if someone challeged it! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

S_N
13-10-08, 06:19 PM
QR - Height of stallions is a good one!! This applies to Sportshorse and TB's - but I often raise my eyebrows at stallions advertised as "16.3hh" when I know full well that they are a good 17.1hh or bigger!!

Touchwood
13-10-08, 06:37 PM
The trouble with that spookynight is that as well as lying it can be downright dangerous when people then use those stallions on their small mares, and end up with some giant of a foal that won't come out!

S_N
13-10-08, 06:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The trouble with that spookynight is that as well as lying it can be downright dangerous when people then use those stallions on their small mares, and end up with some giant of a foal that won't come out!

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite!! The ONLY excuse for this is when IMO is when a stallion is young and still growing - but then IMO the stallion owner should not assume that the mare owner has enough nouce (sp?) to work this out for themselves....

htobago
13-10-08, 07:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify in breeding terms am I correct in the description of parentage is....

Sire / Dam Sire / Dam's Grand sire

Anyone know why they don't consider offspring by the same stallion as a 1/2 brother / sister? It does seem a bit silly to me. I pressume its just one of those historical things that has stuck over the years?
I'm sure they are 1/2 brothers & sister in the dog world, and obviously for humans too!!

[/ QUOTE ]

It is more than a bit silly - it is incredibly silly! Two colts by the same sire are genetically just as much half-brothers as two colts out of the same dam. Same as they are in humans, dogs, cats and every other animal. A foal gets 50% of its genes from each parent, just like a human child. If your father has a child with another woman, that child is your half-brother/sister.

Those who think that being by the same sire means 'nothing' should be asked if they would breed a stallion to a mare who was by the same sire! They will say No, because that would be very close in-breeding - because the stallion and mare would be half-brother and half-sister!!!

The convention that only foals out of the same dam can be called half-brothers/sisters is just that, a convention. Genetically, biologically, scientifically, it is utter nonsense.

So - a stallion owner who says that their stallion is a half-brother to another horse by the same sire is, genetically, being perfectly accurate - and surely what breeders should care about is genetics, not some silly etiquette!

almorton
13-10-08, 08:07 PM
i wonder how many 'grade a' bsja stallions there really are? especially when its soooo easy to get the bsja to upgrade them from c to b, or b to a, by production of a small fee!
(tip - get a printout of winnings, (not just a piece of paper stating the grade!!) of every stallion you use!)

htobago
13-10-08, 11:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is really shocking Anastasia! Call me naive, but I did not know that people lied so blatantly in the their stallion ads.

And how stupid when it is so easy to check up on these results!

Are you absolutely sure that this is a deliberate lie - I mean, that there is no possible ambiguity either in the record or in the wording of the ad or anything? Could the horse maybe have improved since returning to the UK and competed at 1.20 over here, or something?

Or could there be a 'translation' problem? Someone on here (I think it was on here) recently claimed their horse was competing 'Advanced Medium' dressage in Germany (or somewhere) and it turned out to be a 'translation' problem - the grade she thought was equivalent to Advanced Medium was in fact more like Novice. An innocent mistake - the person did not intend to mislead anyone.

Sorry - clutching at straws - it just seems so extraordinary to me that someone would tell such a blatant falsehood! I keep thinking there must surely be some mistake. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bless you...........you always see the best in everyone...thats the one thing I think is fantastic about you Kt.. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

No ambiguity at all I am afraid. The results were very clear, and I double checked at what height each level was. I have also checked the affiliated records since his return to the UK and he has not been out competing. And on the webpage I seen it definately stated that the results were achieved in the other country, so the owner has stated that themselves.

As I said above, I was only doing a small thing for myself to see what results some stallions had actually achieved against what they are advertised as having achieved.

[/ QUOTE ]


Anastasia that is a very charitable way of putting it - other people just say that I am naive, gullible and have a tendency to see the world through rose-tinted specs!

OK I know this is going to sound like more clutching at straws, but I meant to add in my previous post that possibly the stallion-owner might have been misled by the horse's previous owners (or trainers) in the other country? This need not even have been deliberate misleading on their part - could just have been a misunderstanding over terminology or something, like that dressage confusion I mentioned.

Sorry - I don't mean to come across as all Pollyanna-ish and rose-tinted, but I would hate for someone to be condemned for a simple mistake - it must be really horrid to be accused of lying when you had no intention to mislead. I have no idea which stallion-owner this is about, but as they are not here to defend themselves, I just sort of feel that someone has to point out that there might be an innocent explanation for this error.

I am absolutely NOT saying that you meant any harm Anastasia - you know what it's like to be falsely accused of misleading people, and I am sure you would never knowingly do this to anyone else - I'm just saying there might be a possibility that this inaccuracy could be an innocent mistake.

The Original Kao
14-10-08, 01:01 AM
But if it was so easy for anastasia to find out that stallions jumping record, surely the owners could have done the same before buying him and advertising him as competing over heights that he hasn't. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

htobago
14-10-08, 01:31 AM
Fair point. But sometimes when you totally trust someone it just wouldn't occur to you to check up on what they've told you.

And as I said, it needn't even have been deliberate misleading on the part of the previous owners - could just have been a misunderstanding about terminology or something.

Oh God - now I'm trying to defend the previous owners as well!

Look - I have no idea what happened, I'm just guessing. But I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Surely the kind thing to do would be to contact the stallion-owner directly (after all, we can't assume that everyone reads this forum) and point out that there is an error on their website? If I'd made a mistake like that I would be grateful for this information so I could correct it.

TarrSteps
14-10-08, 07:40 AM
I do think this sort of thing can happen "by mistake" particularly when people are all excited over a new stallion purchase and really want to believe the best! It could also be that if buyers suspect they have been mislead they are reluctant to look too hard at the reality. We all know people who "exaggerate" their horses' accomplishments. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BUT this is another area where stallions aren't "ordinary" horses and rules of business need to apply. (Something horse people, myself included, are not always good at applying to their emotional investment . . .) If you're advertising a product you need to portray that product accurately - there are quite firm rules on that subject and they apply to stallions just as they would to push chairs, automobiles, music lessons, groceries . . . well, you get the picture. So people can (and do) say what they want in private to their friends about their horse's accomplishments but the minute they start selling a service and advertising the burden of proof is on them to make sure their information is accurate.

Questionable wording is another issue, especially the thin line between "enthusiastic promotion" and intent to deceive. I've seen advertisements that imply a horse has been approved when in fact it's been inspected and has only a conditional license. The argument is either the owners don't understand (in which case, what are they doing standing a stallion?) or mare owners only care about registration opportunities with regard to this information. Uh, no, many actually want to know if the horse has passed his testing successfully.

Gotta love the internet, though! I've seen more than one stallion owner "called out" because someone has done a bit of digging and come up with inconsistencies. (To be honest, usually because they've annoyed someone.) Even in cases where no one has bothered to make an issue it's often "common knowledge" out there on the boards.

Anastasia
14-10-08, 07:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But if it was so easy for anastasia to find out that stallions jumping record, surely the owners could have done the same before buying him and advertising him as competing over heights that he hasn't. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bless you both for your thinking round the subject.....LOL.....but the owners owned the stallion before he went abroad to compete..... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anastasia
14-10-08, 08:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Gotta love the internet, though! I've seen more than one stallion owner "called out" because someone has done a bit of digging and come up with inconsistencies. (To be honest, usually because they've annoyed someone.) Even in cases where no one has bothered to make an issue it's often "common knowledge" out there on the boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

TarrSteps, I think I would be correct in saying it does not just go for stallions. With the Internet and the fact that so many people with horses have websites, its very easy to pick up on a lot of information much more quickly nowadays than before. Also because its on a world platform and there is so much more competition people do get more desperate to promote their own.

TarrSteps
14-10-08, 08:15 AM
Oh absolutely!

It also applies significantly to selling horses and promoting various other business aspects of the horse world. I'm amazed how many people post gaily away about horses they eventually hope to sell/promote without a thought to all the people who are reading anonymously. I suspect sometimes people think the only people reading their information are the tiny number of people they *want* to be reading the information and somehow it's passing everyone else by.

I think people also forget that once something is on the 'net it's out there forever. Yes, it might be difficult to find the information and it might even come to light by fluke but someone out there knows the truth and if a searcher is motivated the access makes it possible to find that person.

The only catch is it does also make it far easier to disseminate rumours and potentially damaging misinformation. Its a small jump from "I've heard" to "it is" once the story gets passed around.

Anastasia
14-10-08, 08:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The only catch is it does also make it far easier to disseminate rumours and potentially damaging misinformation. Its a small jump from "I've heard" to "it is" once the story gets passed around.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL indeed!! You dont even need to Internet for that one! I have lost count the amount of times somebody has said they have heard we have sold our stallions for some 6 figure sum.......my reply is always "I wish!!"....LOL http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TarrSteps
14-10-08, 08:42 AM
Very true! There's nothing like horse people for an effective rumour mill! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Just as an example of "you never know" though, a friend of mine who was an up and coming showjumper sold a very promising horse to a foreign buyer and there were all sorts of rumours going around about the price. I happened to be in the AgCan (like DEFRA) office soon after and there was a giant white board on the back wall (visible to all) listing horse in quarantine for export, along with their pertinent information, including their value! Lo and behold, there was the horse and what I presume was either his price or the amount he had been insured for. It was indeed a lot of money! (My friend bought a farm with it, although he's never had a horse that promising again.) I never told anyone the price although I did mention the white board and the fact that there's no such thing as a real secret!

htobago
14-10-08, 09:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
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But if it was so easy for anastasia to find out that stallions jumping record, surely the owners could have done the same before buying him and advertising him as competing over heights that he hasn't. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Bless you both for your thinking round the subject.....LOL.....but the owners owned the stallion before he went abroad to compete..... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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OK LOL - one last try and then I will give up, I promise! I'm really not just being naive and soft-hearted here - it's just that it seems sooooo daft to make a claim like this that can be so easily checked - hence my conviction that it must surely be a mistake.

I did put in brackets earlier that maybe the stallion's overseas trainer (rather than his previous owners) had misled the owner - again not necessarily deliberately: it could have been a misunderstanding or 'translation' error.

I'm not trying to say there are no rogues out there, but people DO also make innocent mistakes. Anastasia you were falsely (and maliciously) accused of a misleading website statement about a stallion quite recently - when in fact it was a totally innocent mistake (concerning that utterly STUPID, unscientific etiquette about 'half-brothers') and you clearly never had the slightest intention to mislead people (the horse's pedigree was right there for everyone to read, for heaven's sake)!

I jumped to your defence then, so I hope you will forgive me for attempting to give this other stallion-owner the benefit of the doubt (although obviously this situation is different, as there is no malice involved, and you have not named the person).

Having said that, you are right to warn us that website information can be inaccurate - whether by mistake or by design - and that it is always worth checking!

AndyPandy
14-10-08, 09:50 AM
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Heres one for starters although obviously not a famous stallion but...

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And looking at his advert, I also see (as well as the "sibling" issue), that it states he has "90% fertility", which is a totally useless, pointless, statistic, that may be (or may as well be) totally made up!

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit on that subject, but I do feel VERY strongly about it.

burtie
14-10-08, 10:19 AM
I have known of stallions advertised with BD points,( in fact a significant amout) that have never been in the ring, they were just given them because of their age at import. So not actually lying, but I think could be rather misleading!

Anastasia
14-10-08, 11:08 AM
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Anastasia you were falsely (and maliciously) accused of a misleading website statement about a stallion quite recently - when in fact it was a totally innocent mistake (concerning that utterly STUPID, unscientific etiquette about 'half-brothers') and you clearly never had the slightest intention to mislead people (the horse's pedigree was right there for everyone to read, for heaven's sake)!


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Htobago...you are correct in the above (and I think we have all had threads on this forum where people have tried to take down our honesty and integrity, as you have had yourself).

However the difference about the above was that KR mentioned me on a public forum, so I was obviously going to defend myself, as others did for me also. But in fairness the two cannot be compared because I was honest about the stallions breeding, as you said the pedigree was there for everyone to see. All I had previously done (which was pointed out months prior), was that I had put the stallion down as a half sibling, when if you use the rules spoken about above, he is not (although technically he is....LOL).

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I did put in brackets earlier that maybe the stallion's overseas trainer (rather than his previous owners) had misled the owner

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As a horse owner, you have to register yourself besides your horse in whichever discipline, whether that be dressage, showjumping or eventing etc, and the same goes with competition abroad. Itís not just the horse and rider who are registered, but the owners also have to be registered themselves. So as a horse owner you have complete access to your horseís results and achievements.

However, I also have not spoken about which stallion it is or who owns it, and I have no intention of doing so. So the owner has no defending to do because I have mentioned no names, and it could be a multitude of horses that I am speaking about.

However, in my OP I was just bringing to the attention to others that you cannot believe everything you read about a horse/stallion (which sadly most people do).

Anastasia
14-10-08, 11:19 AM
Can I just add, that with the amount of views that this post has received besides those that have posted their own thoughts on the subject, that hopefully I have given people food for thought when they select their next stallion. However it may make no difference at all to mare owners....but at least I have got people talking and thinking about it... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

magic104
14-10-08, 12:36 PM
"It is more than a bit silly - it is incredibly silly! Two colts by the same sire are genetically just as much half-brothers as two colts out of the same dam. Same as they are in humans, dogs, cats and every other animal. A foal gets 50% of its genes from each parent, just like a human child. If your father has a child with another woman, that child is your half-brother/sister.

This may have been answered already, not read through every single post. I thought it was because the mare has the bigger contribution to the foal.

cruiseline
14-10-08, 12:43 PM
I too am one that has never understood why 2 siblings from the same father are not known as 1/2 brother or sister, yet 1/2 siblings from a mare are????

Isn't the genetic make-up of any horse 50% father and 50% mother. Therefore it should not matter if the relationship of 2 horses is from the father or mother's side, they are genetically still 1/2 siblings.

Or am I just being thick!!!!!!

sallyf
14-10-08, 12:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"It is more than a bit silly - it is incredibly silly! Two colts by the same sire are genetically just as much half-brothers as two colts out of the same dam. Same as they are in humans, dogs, cats and every other animal. A foal gets 50% of its genes from each parent, just like a human child. If your father has a child with another woman, that child is your half-brother/sister.

This may have been answered already, not read through every single post. I thought it was because the mare has the bigger contribution to the foal.

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I think the differance is that humans only tend to have one partner so there tends to be a limit to how many brothers and sisters there are.
Stallions can have 300 foals per year and that is an awful lot of confusing 1/2 brothers and sisters to work through if you are looking for a foal.
besides in sport horse and TB breeding the dam line has greater significance, its whether the mare is a producer or not that you are interested in.
Lets face it humans dont breed for performance do they ,you really cant look at the two things in the same light .

timmy1977
14-10-08, 12:50 PM
i totally agree, people may not like calling horses with the same father half brother or sister but like it or not technically they are and as such noone should jump down someones throat for using the term.

cruiseline
14-10-08, 12:58 PM
Thank you Anastasia for posting this thread, as I think it is very important for people to do their research BEFORE choosing a stallion for their breeding program or before buying one too. Especially if they are young and relatively unknown.

It is not difficult to find out competition records, a short search or a quick phone call is really all you need to do.

Htobago, you are such a lovely person (if only the whole world could be like you, we wouldn't be having this sort of discussion), but there really are people out there that are dishonest and hide the truth, usually all in the name of making a profit.

ColouredFan
14-10-08, 01:10 PM
A very interesting thread and one that although I am aware of many people aren't. It is very simple to check up on a horses competition record and as a mare owner it was my resposibilty to check competition results of my chosen stallion BEFORE i used him. Which I did and thankfully all came back exactly as advertised.

One particular stallion I can think of is advertised as competing sucesfully BE with a first and second at intro, which is true, what they fail to tell you is that from 7 intro starts these are his only placings and his only double clears, he has had a few stops XC and an E showjumping in his results at Intro, as well as an E in his only attempt at PN. Without checking his results you would consider him a good event prospect however after looking at his results I ruled him out.

cruiseline
14-10-08, 01:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"It is more than a bit silly - it is incredibly silly! Two colts by the same sire are genetically just as much half-brothers as two colts out of the same dam. Same as they are in humans, dogs, cats and every other animal. A foal gets 50% of its genes from each parent, just like a human child. If your father has a child with another woman, that child is your half-brother/sister.

This may have been answered already, not read through every single post. I thought it was because the mare has the bigger contribution to the foal.

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I think the differance is that humans only tend to have one partner so there tends to be a limit to how many brothers and sisters there are.
Stallions can have 300 foals per year and that is an awful lot of confusing 1/2 brothers and sisters to work through if you are looking for a foal.
besides in sport horse and TB breeding the dam line has greater significance, its whether the mare is a producer or not that you are interested in.
Lets face it humans dont breed for performance do they ,you really cant look at the two things in the same light .

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Sorry but I still think that regardless of how many siblings are produced each year from any stallion, they are still ALL half brothers or sisters.

Here in the Arab world Muslim men can have 4 wives http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif (there are certain rules though http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) and all their children are considered 1/2 siblings.

It is a silly that a person can not refer to a horse as being a half brother/sister to another, just because it is the fathers line that is the same.

Makes no sense what so ever

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

htobago
14-10-08, 01:20 PM
Oh dear - please don't think I was getting at you - that wasn't my intention at all! As you say, we have all been there... Someone tried to make out that my stallion's foal had only won the national Arab foal championship because he was the only horse in the class!!! The true fact was that although this colt was the only foal in the 'weaned and orphan foals' class, he then went on to beat all the other foals from all the foal classes at the national show to win the national champion title.

Again, that was a totally stupid and malicious rumour - and as I have made very clear, I am sure there is no malice intended in the present case. As I said, you have not named anyone, and as you rightly point out, this warning could apply to any number of stallion-owners!

And as I said, you are right to warn us all that there may be inaccuracies, exaggerations (and perhaps even downright falsehoods) on stallion websites - so we should always try to check the facts.

But in the present case, all I can say is that even though stallion-owners have access to all the records, if I totally trusted my horse's overseas trainer or rider, it might never even occur to me to check up on the results to make sure they were telling the truth. Unless I doubted their word, there would be no reason to this. So it is still possible, I think, that this inaccuracy may be an innocent mistake.

Personally, I would never condemn anyone for making the half-sibling 'mistake', as they are telling the scientific/genetic truth, which is, or should be, far more important to breeders than some silly and misleading protocol! A stallion's foals are merely likely to be more numerous than a mare's: this does not make them any less closely related to each other! Even if your father had children with a hundred other women, they would still all be your half-siblings!

Sorry to rant, but that ridiculous convention really annoys me!

sallyf
14-10-08, 01:22 PM
It is what the TB industry not sure about anyone else takes as said.
Otherwise i could advertise one of my stallions as being a 1/2 brother to 200 + stakes winners which i wouldnt because i believe it is misleading.
Instead he is advertised as being by said stallion and a 1/2 brother to 8 winners.
There is a big differance in my book and i for one wouldnt want to see it changed.
Just my opinion though .

cruiseline
14-10-08, 01:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have known of stallions advertised with BD points,( in fact a significant amout) that have never been in the ring, they were just given them because of their age at import. So not actually lying, but I think could be rather misleading!

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There was a TB stallion who was exported from here to the UK. He was registered with our National showjumping Federation, but struggled to get a clear on a 1m course (the lowest class we hold). On arrival in the UK he was registered BSJA and due to his age he was given 'Grade A' status. I was shocked to say the least when I saw a stallion ad in H&H for him stating he was a Grade A http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. I think the BSJA has got a little wise to this now, as that was several years ago, and carry out background checks, thank goodness
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

htobago
14-10-08, 01:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"It is more than a bit silly - it is incredibly silly! Two colts by the same sire are genetically just as much half-brothers as two colts out of the same dam. Same as they are in humans, dogs, cats and every other animal. A foal gets 50% of its genes from each parent, just like a human child. If your father has a child with another woman, that child is your half-brother/sister.

This may have been answered already, not read through every single post. I thought it was because the mare has the bigger contribution to the foal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the differance is that humans only tend to have one partner so there tends to be a limit to how many brothers and sisters there are.
Stallions can have 300 foals per year and that is an awful lot of confusing 1/2 brothers and sisters to work through if you are looking for a foal.
besides in sport horse and TB breeding the dam line has greater significance, its whether the mare is a producer or not that you are interested in.
Lets face it humans dont breed for performance do they ,you really cant look at the two things in the same light .

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that the basic rules of genetics apply equally to humans and horses: biologically, children by the same father (equine or human) are half-siblings; this may be inconvenient for some horse-breeders, but it is nonetheless a scientific fact!

And if the dam line is so important in sport-horse breeding, why do they not even bother to mention the dam at all when listing a horse's breeding? Only the 3 principal sires are included, forcing breeders who want to know the dam's name to spend hours of detective-work trying to track it down!!

(Sorry - not getting at you sallyf - just objecting to all these blindingly stupid conventions!)

sallyf
14-10-08, 02:03 PM
That is as maybe with sport horse breeding but not in the TB industry when if you look at a foal or yearings sale page it is the first three dams that are listed in great detail.
Also a good thing that TB people do is rate a stallions ability to improve on the mare against other stallions .

htobago
14-10-08, 02:30 PM
Yes, the TB system is much, much better - it actually gives due credit to the dam and the female line, unlike the sport-horse listing convention which completely ignores this, although proponents of the sport-horse system spout lots of fine rhetoric about the crucial importance of motherlines!

Gosh - I seem to be having a bit of a rant-fest today. Sorry! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

htobago
14-10-08, 02:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is what the TB industry not sure about anyone else takes as said.
Otherwise i could advertise one of my stallions as being a 1/2 brother to 200 + stakes winners which i wouldnt because i believe it is misleading.
Instead he is advertised as being by said stallion and a 1/2 brother to 8 winners.
There is a big differance in my book and i for one wouldnt want to see it changed.
Just my opinion though .

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How can it be misleading, when the truth is that your stallion IS half-brother to those 200+ stakes winners?!! And presumably one of the reasons your stallion's breeder used his sire was precisely BECAUSE he sires a lot of stakes winners!!

It's only the unscientific etiquette that makes it unacceptable for you say that your horse is half-brother to all those winners - it would certainly not be misleading for you to do so, as it is the truth!

What is misleading is the silly convention that forces you to deny that your horse is half-brother to those winners!

The only different between foals by the same sire and foals out of the same dam is that the former are likely to be far more numerous. And therefore possibly less valuable, of course. But no less closely related.

It seems daft to me that the industry cannot simply acknowledge that foals by the same sire will be more commonplace than foals from the same dam, and thus potentially less valuable, without having to deny their genetic relationship! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Springs
14-10-08, 03:31 PM
I would hope that NED will hold the achievements of all horses in the future. This would discourage any false claims etc and allow a clear method of checking up on a horses breeding history and performance record.

The bigest problem is that the majority of people who breed horses take the information advertised as been the truth and don't realy research the back ground or the claims made by the stallion owners. There are only a few that dig down into the background etc.

htobago
14-10-08, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you Anastasia for posting this thread, as I think it is very important for people to do their research BEFORE choosing a stallion for their breeding program or before buying one too. Especially if they are young and relatively unknown.

It is not difficult to find out competition records, a short search or a quick phone call is really all you need to do.

Htobago, you are such a lovely person (if only the whole world could be like you, we wouldn't be having this sort of discussion), but there really are people out there that are dishonest and hide the truth, usually all in the name of making a profit.

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Cruiseline you are far too kind - and I dread to think what kind of giant mess the world would be in if it were full of numpties like me LOL!!

Seriously - I do realise that there are dishonest stallion-owners and breeders out there! I just feel that on principle one should try to give people the benefit of the doubt -y'know, 'innocent until proven guilty' and all that...

I know I have a tendency to be too trusting, but I firmly believe (and there is research evidence to support this) that about 90% of people behave well (honestly/honourably), about 90% of the time. So most of the time, when you give someone the benefit of the doubt, you are likely to be right!

Of course - there is that other 10%. And of course for all I know this stallion-owner could be one of them. But the odds are roughly 10 to 1 against this! So I prefer at least to consider the possibility of an innocent mistake...

(It might not surprise you to hear that 'Twelve Angry Men' is one of my favourite films! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

kerilli
14-10-08, 04:11 PM
I can hardly believe that people lie about Event Stallions' results, when they are there for all to see on BE for free at the click of a button. I know sometimes people are a bit 'economical with the truth', but outright lies can be checked up on immediately! there are big holes in the BE database, especially if you go back a few years, and some errors, but it is very good for a quick check. If only BSJA and BD were as transparent.

sallyf
14-10-08, 04:21 PM
God i hope they dont start to recognise everything by the same sire as being 1/2 brothers .
I dread to think what would happen to the breeding industry as it will just encourage even more people to keep more average stallions entire just because it is a 1/2 brother to such and such so must be wonderful regardless of the fact that it could be out of any old mare .
Lets face it you can import semen from any stallion abroad with no regard for what the mare is.
The mind boggles.

DAHH
14-10-08, 04:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the TB system is much, much better - it actually gives due credit to the dam and the female line, unlike the sport-horse listing convention which completely ignores this, although proponents of the sport-horse system spout lots of fine rhetoric about the crucial importance of motherlines!

Gosh - I seem to be having a bit of a rant-fest today. Sorry! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the Tb system is far better. However not all sport horse listings ignore the female line. In France a Selle Francais's breeding would be written as follows :- Sire X Dam X Dams sire. It then goes on to give full achievements of sire and dam etc. In my opinion this is far more useful and informative than the Sire X Dam Sire formula many other studbooks use.

PS. I assume KenR is away as he has yet to put his twopenny worth in? http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

htobago
14-10-08, 05:05 PM
DAHH - I am very glad to hear that about the Selle Francais listings. Most warmblood breeds use the unhelpful and IMO downright misogynist 'sire x damsire x dam's maternal grandsire' formula.

Most other breeds use the same formula as the SF - 'sire x dam x damsire' - usually written 'sire x dam (damsire)'. This is far more helpful, I think - most of the good breeders that I know are obsessed with motherlines, and the dam's name is the first thing they want to know.

KR no longer posts on here as he has been banned. But I'm not sure he would have anything useful to contribute on this particular issue, as I asked him several times and he never could provide a coherent explanation for the misogynist formula - just got angry at me for daring to question the wisdom of the omniscient and infallible WB breed societies! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

stinkybombs
14-10-08, 06:51 PM
Perhaps the horse had competed at unaffiliated medium level!! I know thats what I have done with mine as I dont compete enough to get him aff

alleycat
14-10-08, 09:27 PM
I'm sure both the half-sibling convention and the business of missing out the damline in abbreviated pedigrees are just shorthand, based on statistics, and the likelihood of what the buyer / mare-owner etc. will already know.

I HATE the missing out the damline business for a number of reasons; not least because as a mare owner my breeding exploits are centred round the damline; if I breed a foal that enters the public domain & is described by means of this shorthand, my 3 generations of mares will disappear entirely; only other people's stallions will be in evidence.... I think its really unhelpful when you are looking at stallions, too; the damline is what makes the difference, since they ALL have famous fathers.

That's where the half-sibling thing comes in, I think; you generally know something about the sire; he's a select animal by definition and the better he is, the more offspring he probably has (alright, I know it doesn't always work like that) - so if you say such and such a horse by Stallion X- well, Stallion X and his other offspring are instantly familiar. You don't NEED to list half siblings by the same sire; its too obvious & too easily researched. We know one of Sally's stallions is by Saddlers Wells- well, nuff said! & even those of us who don't breed Arabs would probably recognise a Tobagoling if we saw one (it helps that they all look just like their Dad). But the mares? because they don't have as much chance to be famous through their offspring, its useful to be reminded what other good offspring they have produced. So I can see where the convention comes from; though I think a lot of people new to breeding don't know of it (hence the stallion that AP & someone else mentioned; his owner is fairly new to breeding, I think, and I doubt in this case it was intended to deceive.)

What I'd really like to know- and perhaps it could be posted as a sticky? is where DO you find competition information, across all the disciplines and different countries? Anastasia says it is fairly easy; http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gifI wouldn't have any idea where to begin. Can anyone outline this ?

Also, surely there's a difference between "spin", which is forgiveable and natural in an advertising context and actual untruth, which is not.

So if in an advert an owner said "my stallion did such & such & he was utterly hopeless"- they'd be a fool; you just wouldn't expect that degree of honesty.

If they said "he competed at such & such a level" you'd know he hadn't won (or they'd say so) but you can't blame them for not saying how bad he really was; they wouldn't be lying exactly...

But the instance Anastasia is giving is in a class by itself; its an actual untruth and probably a deliberate lie; and that is really a bit worrying; I must admit until recently I wouldn't have expected anything quite so blatant, & so wouldn't have bothered to check...even if I knew where to start...

Ponyplanet
15-10-08, 06:17 PM
what a disgraceful thing to do!

I hope the stallion owner sees this post & sorts their advertising out, I for one will be making plenty checks on potential stallions for my mare, but I am very disapointed that I have to http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Hollycat
17-10-08, 11:39 PM
The difficulty is there are so many things you could potentially think to check up on. And many things you will never be able to check up on without inside info of some kind, such as whether a stallion has stayed sound during his career.

The people that tend to use the cheaper stallions that are just doing low level comps probably aren't members of BD, BE etc and don't know they can check results online, so they are more vunerable to being taken in.

My pet hate is when stallions are advertised as a particular breed (e.g Dutch warmblood), has been graded and has progeny doing well at breed shows etc but fail to mention that the stallion is in fact ungraded as a dutch warmblood and resulting foals will not get full papers. The grading is in fact with another breed soc such as BWBS. Also those stallions that have failed their original studbook grading but then graded BWBS, AES etc and are advertised as being excellent examples of their breed - which presumably they aren't if they failed their grading!