View Full Version : Breeders who use a stallion more than once on the same mare?

24-03-08, 07:41 PM
I know it is a lottery but if you breed full sibling foals, do you see a consistency?

I presume it depends on how strongly the sire (or dam) stamps their foals and I guess it is the same principle that you see in human families - some look hugely alike and some you would never guess they are related!

but has anyone done it? I would be interested to see the outcome?

Thanks http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

24-03-08, 07:46 PM
We did do it once nd we got a 17hh grey mare that looked almost 100% ID and a 16.1hh bay mare that looked almost 100% TB ! So we didn't see a consistency there.
But have also done it and got foals that look identical.


24-03-08, 07:48 PM
These two are full siblings

Lola is more like her grandsire and Cali more like her dam with the Trakehner influence coming throuigh and Cali also looks like she will be a lot taller.

annoyingly my OH took down Meka's webpage (we lost her at 2 weeks) or I could have shown you her and her full brother. Both were very big, with good joints. Meka had a little more quality than her older brother, but very similar heads, just one was coloured and one chestnut

24-03-08, 07:50 PM
These two are full sisters. And are/were not a bit alike. The one standing was always on the go, always spooking and busy. The one sleeping was quite lazy, couldn't be bothered and used to give up on things.


24-03-08, 07:55 PM
For sure we do, especially when you have your own stallions. Give me a minute to upload some pictures and I can show you some of our full siblings.

24-03-08, 07:56 PM
oo - really intersting thanks all. Volatis, Lola is stunning! Cali too but I really like the look of lola,

I have a foal due in 10 weeks (though maybe sooner given the size of my mare http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) who will be a full sibling to this one so I will be very intersted to see how it works for mine.
She also looks a lot like her Grandsire


24-03-08, 08:01 PM
For sure we do, especially when you have your own stallions. Give me a minute to upload some pictures and I can show you some of our full siblings.

[/ QUOTE ]

ooo - yes please! * jumps up and down with excitement*

24-03-08, 08:04 PM
I have one due who will be a full sibling so will let you know http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

24-03-08, 08:04 PM
Thanks Arwen, I bred the mare back as Callista was gorgeous, she matured so well. I wanted another coloured filly but only got half my request, but I think Lola is even better. She's a chunky monkey but moves!!! Trying to convince OH we should keep her http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

24-03-08, 08:32 PM
OK, here we go, trip down memory lane. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

This is Versace, one of the first foals we bred. By Geneve out of a chesnut mare by Fredericus AN:



Followed by little sister, Anastasia (hence my user name on here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ) two years later:



Both full siblings. We heard recently that Versace is doing well under dressage and qualified for some champs at Addington last year.

Moggy in Manolos
24-03-08, 08:39 PM
yes in my experience
when we used to breed using our section d stallion with our variety of mares there was real consistency, you could clearly see they were full sisters/bothers, shame i only have hard copy pics and no scanner to show you

24-03-08, 08:59 PM
Here is another batch of full siblings, and the photos are much smaller, sorry about that!

First we had Vinnie Jones - By Geneve out of a Jurius (Nimmerdor Mare)


This was the last piccie I was sent of him:

Then we had his full sister - Zilvia


Followed by full brother - Aladdin (Known by his owners as "Big Al")


Then last but by no means least - B'Royal (aka "Cheeky")



Barring the colour I think they have a huge amount of similarities.

24-03-08, 09:00 PM
wow - thanks for posting t hese Anastasia - what lovely horses you have bred! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

There are some definite similarities - though I do think Nimmerdor stock have a certain look about them.

Can't wait to see whether I get a similar foal to 07. I hope so! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

24-03-08, 09:15 PM
Thanks Arwen. I know that some people think it is boring to have the same combinations, but I think its rather nice, to see what similarities they have, and they all have their own unique personalities anyway, so I never get bored at all with the same combinations.

Here are another three full siblings we have bred. Again all by Geneve out of a "Ster" mare by a stallion called Invincible B, who was by Wellington, out of a Belisar mareline.

First born was Woody Allen, just loved this foal, gorgeous again and his owner just worships the ground he walks on:



This was then followed a year later by Zurich, who went under saddle last year and doing well:


The last out of this combination was our own Ashanti, she was sold but when we lost Geneve we cancelled the sale, and will be our first proper "home bred" that will enter our mare herd this year:



Thats me finished my walk down memory lane... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

24-03-08, 10:10 PM
i used Criminal Law twice on my 16.3 3/4 bred tbxid event mare. both made about 17 hands, dark bay geldings.
the first one was a real "look of the eagles" type, very sharp, cocky, but a bit stressy. a nightmare to break in. he was hugely promising, admired everywhere he went, but i lost him to colic.
his full brother (2 yrs younger) was an almost carbon copy of him, very slightly less quality, less "look at me", much calmer temperament, very easy to break, nothing ever flustered him, but he was a headshaker.
neither of them ever made it to an event, to my despair.
i don't have pics on here but can find some and post them if you like.
fwiw someone whose opinion i really rate has since told me never to breed the same combination twice, said that the second sibling is never as good as the first, a new combination is always better.

25-03-08, 02:01 AM
my current 3 ridden horses are all by the same stallion and 2 of them are full brothers.

The full brothers are very very similar, so much so that everyone apart from me gets them confused. Cue much chaos on the yard so they have to have different coloured rugs & I try not to swap stables about. Just this weekend my mother commented that I had been lungeing one of them for ages, not realising I was onto the second horse!

Their sire really stamps his stock, I often recognise his stock before being told their breeding. Personality wise the brothers are quite different though, but then this could be because I owned one from a foal & bought the other at 5.

The dam of the full brothers also stamped her progeny, I used to own another horse from the same dam as the 2 boys, but out of a different stallion - & she is also very similar to the boys.

Interestingly though, the mare I currently own, (same sire as the boys) doesn't look like her sire or brothers at all, although she has a typical trot. Instead she is the image of her dam sire.

I found it fascinating working on a stud with a relatively closed herd. The mares were covered by one of the two hanoverian stallions at the stud, with the daughters of the older boy being crossed with the other stallion. There were also several mare groups with a couple of generations of the same mare family in some. So, there were a lot of foals very closely related & it was interesting to see how their personalities & looks altered. A couple of the mares seemed to have a particularly strong influence on the stamp of their foals & these foals in turn threw the family look & personality.

25-03-08, 06:30 AM
The sister -
The brother -
Very similar apart from the brother being 4 inches bigger. However, all the fillies out of the mare were under 16hh, and all the colts near or over 17hh (mare = 15.2hh).

25-03-08, 07:29 AM
Zilvia really looks like Vinnie same white face but she has one white leg,i do think they are very similar i will post some pictures this week shes now under saddle http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

25-03-08, 11:41 AM
Zilvia really looks like Vinnie same white face but she has one white leg,i do think they are very similar i will post some pictures this week shes now under saddle http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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That would be great to see. You must email me pictures of her under saddle as well, as that would be fantastic to see. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

the watcher
25-03-08, 11:58 AM
I have Spitchwick Sea Emerald on loan, and she has two full sisters


The most recent, Sapphire with mum in the background

And Emerald

They all the very strong stamp of the sire, Rashma of Warren


26-03-08, 09:33 AM
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/zilvia123/zilvia-1-1.jpg full sister of vinnie,Zilvia MF they look similar not the best picture shes in her winter woolies http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

26-03-08, 10:13 AM
Gosh she looks all grown up now since we last saw her http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif (well of course she would be, but its so great to see them all grown up when you remember them as foals http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). There are definate similarities that is for sure!! She is looking super, and reminds me so much of Octavia her mum. Looks to have the typical Geneve excellent limbs and feet. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

If you could email any piccies you have would soooo appreciate it to show hubby, he will be chuffed when he sees her.. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks again for sharing these, its been super to see her. xx

26-03-08, 02:20 PM
I know a full brother/sister by Jumbo one is bay 16.2hh and complete screw the other is a chunky chestnut mare 17hh and so laid back its hard to motivate her!! Both went to CCI** eventing but one with a temperament and build in between the two of them would have gone further and been a lot easier!!

26-03-08, 03:15 PM
Not quite the question you asked but my mare is a Derwen bred Welsh Cob and there is a definite stamp to them, to the point where show judges don't ask 'What is her breeding?' but instead ask 'Is she Derwen bred?' http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bad pic of her in her winter woolies and on box rest after an injury:


And some of her relatives:


The black with white socks combo is quite noticeable http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

27-03-08, 10:52 PM
the german mare Deka had Caletto I, II , III, caletto's son and legende all by cor de la bryere. another mare tabelle had calypso I to V and tibris all by cor de la bryere again. the mare grannuschka had couleur rubin and couleur rouge both by cordalme she also had contessa and conterno grande by contender... some mare! the list goes on. if you have found a mare stallion combination that works then why change it?

30-01-11, 08:38 PM
I bred 2 full brothers by Celtic Cone. They were both entered in the same hurdle race at Newbury, The race was devided due to the number of entries. The brothers both won.

30-01-11, 11:12 PM
I've done it several times; twice with one mare and two different stallions and one mare three times to the same stallion.

These were both by Embla Statesman; peas in a pod! Fiver is now twenty and still enjoying himself hunting and fun rides while Flo is in the same home since she was six and very much doted on.

These were both by Big Connaught (TB) The chestnut went on to be Champion at the Malvern HIS show and top priced two year old (wish they had used a better photograph!). He went on to a county showing career and did very well; last I heard he was living the life of old Riley being ridden on the beach each day. The little bay was a weed at birth, was very ill and only made just over 15 hands but was very elegant, totally different from the chestnut; you wouldn't have thought they were out of the same mare let alone by the same stallion.


The other mare had three by Fairlyn Gemini, definitely all very similar although one had a lot more white; all went on to showing, one doing very well at side saddle; the last is now a broodmare at a well known stud and had three lovely foals by their resident stallion which they're very pleased with; sorry, no pictures of those on here.

31-01-11, 08:36 AM
Overstone Infanta has 5 foals two by Medoc and 3 by Don Ricoss that are all identical white blaze ,chestnut and white socks and more important all have fantastic temprement . she has a.two year old white blaze and white socks but dark brown.
Matisse (eventing 56 points),Marqeussa(dressage),Davina,Rossa and Donna Orla.

31-01-11, 08:45 AM
I've used the same stallion a lot of times on the same mare.
I generally find that fillies will always look like the mare, unless to a stallion that throws very typey foals (eg. Overbury). Colts tend to all look the same.
Having known a lot of small mares(15.2hh), have also found that there fillies will also be around the same size but the colts up to 17hh.

31-01-11, 09:45 AM
Have certainly done this and hope to repeat it again for a filly next time

The pics are of the full brothers, AKA Starbuck's Champagne Star (buckskin tobiano) and Incandescent Flame (bay tobiano), aged foal to three years. The boys are very similar and both now stand as stallions alongside their sire, TP Starbuck. Their dam is a home bred, First Premium/Ster, Part Arab mare. They have won multiple championships throughout the country and have temperaments to die for.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3017/2865638447_cc8b9b8299.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/2865638447/)
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/3066649142_2a6a9d23cd_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/3066649142/)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/3074594293_bf9923a1bf.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/3074594293/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/3065808079_708efb3b54.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/3065808079/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/2276451757_12764463e2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/2276451757/)
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31-01-11, 10:06 AM
We have bred 3 full siblings out of our own stallion.


This pic is a 3 year old this year filly winning in hand hunter and sport horse.


This is a 2 year old full brother this year he is winning in hand hunter sport horse and hunter, also reserve high score first premium BEF.


This is a full brother from last year he was 9th in the UK BEF foal for Dressage. They all are very similar and stamps his stock.

31-01-11, 02:02 PM
We have bred the ame mare to the same stallion Rcco and Angrove Dance Girl
not only do the two of the full siblings look alike they are both double Homozygous as well Tobiano and Black.

31-01-11, 07:52 PM
I know it is a lottery but if you breed full sibling foals, do you see a consistency?
but has anyone done it? I would be interested to see the outcome?

I've done it a lot!:D

These are second generation home-bred siblings - all pure-bred ID fillies.

Indigo Sweet Magic (born 2008)

And Indigo Sweet Melody (born 2009)

Melody is now grey - like Mum - and shares a field with (amongst others) another grey filly Summer Song - who is a full sister to Melody's Mum. THEY are very similar!

And the current baby - Indigo Sweet Caroline (will stay bay)

Mum is Indigo Tralee Rosebud (aka Maggie) - two of the fillies are by Avanti Amorous Archie - can you guess which 2??

And - talking about Maggie:

I have her full brother Rambo (entire)

A year younger - and gelded - Thornton

A year younger was Sailor - he's sold now

Then Deep Secret - a filly - shown at her grading.

And Summer Song - at weaning.

Summer is probably the MOST like Maggie.

I can't find a pic of the latest as she was on the 'do not photograph' list for a long time - she had horribly crumpled hocks - but she HAS straightened up now and looks very like Summer.

All of that lot are by Lady's Tralee Raj ex Northwood Rose.

I'd better stop there - although I have LOADS more!:D

It's great fun when you come to back them - you KNOW what they'll be like! Because it's not just looks that are passed on, but temperament and trainability too!

31-01-11, 10:04 PM
We have two sisters who we have bred time and time again to the same stallion.
They are slightly different in height and build, and it always shows in their offspring.
The bigger mares are chunkier and quieter in temperament like her, and the smaller mare's incredibly beautiful heads and slightly fizzier rides.
What passes on every time from the stallion are the paces, all of them have lovely long strides despite the mares having choppy ID type trots. (apologies to ID lovers, but some ID's do have less than flowing paces!)
The colours have always been bay from mid to dark, and all jump well, though one mare was never competed before breeding from her.
You can recognise which mare our youngsters come from mainly because of the heads, otherwise it would be hard to say which was out of which mare when foals, as they mature it's more obvious. Some of them are very similar in looks, I would say there is no massive difference in any of them to an outsider, we just see it because we know them all so well.
If you would like to see some pics I have hundreds on facebook, pm me for my details and I will add you.

01-02-11, 09:19 AM
[QUOTE=JanetGeorge;It's great fun when you come to back them - you KNOW what they'll be like! Because it's not just looks that are passed on, but temperament and trainability too![/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more with the above, I've bred three siblings, and the second is just out under saddle, and SO easy in every way. I'm in a rather unique position as I've had the sire and dam of them since very young, and brought them on and competed them both throughout their careers. I feel I'm in a good position to know just how they will behave under saddle, and so far I've been correct.
Here they are, the first is now six, photos of him as a yearling, and last year eventing...
The filly is now five, photo taken of her at two at the Futurity where she got Elite......
The third is now three, photo taken as a yearling....

Their sire.....

and dam.......
I think you'll agree theres quite a similarity.

01-02-11, 09:51 AM
I just read your cat survey...hilarious!!!!!

01-02-11, 11:39 AM
Here are two that I have bred out of St Pr Acord II mare by Emma Hindle's GP dressage stallion, Fuerstenreich (Florestan)

Furst Love, a gelding, Champion at the Royal Show, very successful dressage and showjumping and is now eventing with Alex Huan Tian





and Furst Kiss (a year younger) was Supreme Champion broodmare and the BD Breeding Championships (and has since been sold to Canada)




They are really similar in many ways (not least that they are both huge!!)

Their half sibling (out of the same mare, by Furst Heinrich (Florestan) is the super young stallion Franklyn Sugar. apologies, I don't have a pic of him to hand

01-02-11, 12:18 PM
I have a photo of my boy and a photo of his full brother.

Excuse the unpulled mane!! This is my gelding....


My gelding is a year old than his full brother, however his brother is already the same height as him and quite a bit thicker set. (Black is rising 4 and bay is rising 3.)
My gelding is also a lot sharper than his brother, who has a laid back nature.
And apparently, my boy has the better movement :p

full brother....


01-02-11, 01:44 PM
I used Crosstown Dancer RID on my homebred Mare Gracie results were Archie, Gordon and Gerty.
Gracie, with Archie(yearling) and foal Gordon.
Archie and Gordon
Gracie and Gerty center and Right, chestnut is Gracie's full sister by Snowford Bellman Ex Bright Alice
They all look like the dam colour wise but I think Archie has alot of Dad in him.
Sorry pictures so small!!
BIGGER Liam Glorias son , Gloria, Gracie and gerty

01-02-11, 05:18 PM
OMG I love that mare with my whole heart.

Gracie run to Surrey. xxx

PS go SA GO! Tinkle tinkle tinkle

01-02-11, 05:28 PM

These 2 are full brother and sister, they are by Gorsfraith Brenin out of Trevoulter Silver Jewell. Their full brother is now standing at Trevoulter Barton stud and there is 2 other full sibs, 3 of the 5 are roan. Our 2, who are also in my sig both like to be in your face but have been great fun and are usually in the ribbons.

01-02-11, 06:22 PM
Cannot think what SA stands for , it would not refer to my height would by any chance?
Gracie safely tucked up in her field, but you can have Noddy if you like. XX

02-02-11, 09:27 AM
Hi Guys,

We often breed the same way and had one cross that we did six times - Daws Firebird x Cassander, years ago. They were all similar in that thet were all VERY good movers and had easy gut go temperaments. The fillies were bay and one looked very like her mother and the colts were chestnet and were very stamped by their father. The similarities were greater than the differences when you allow for the gender. (In my experience the fillies are more like their dams and the colts like the sire).

04-02-11, 11:41 AM
Jaxmath is that photoshopped?!! if not how on EARTH did you persuade him to stand in that field loose?!! stunner!

05-02-11, 10:34 PM
Our broodmare stamps hers really strongly in terms of appearance, we have 2 full brothers, and not only do they look v similar, they have the nicest quietest temperaments, (that we recon are from the stallion, as the mare, although lovely, isn't a peoples person, and these 2 brothers really are!) the 4yo filly is the precocious of them all, but in a good way, but you can really tell they are all related, haven't got any pictures of them though!

06-02-11, 11:38 AM
Jaxmath is that photoshopped?!! if not how on EARTH did you persuade him to stand in that field loose?!! stunner!

Hi Amy_b, no it wasn't photoshopped - he was looking at the cows across the field and I was stood in front of him just out of shot!